1973 500 CCW ignition points/clutch alignment

[Roadking80]

Hello, I have a couple questions regarding a 1973 500
Model 5000B SER# 13000*
KEC-440 SER# 55000*
I have been hunting for the correct points for this engine, which from what I gather is supposed to be a KEC-440/4.
John Deere gives me a part# AM53168, for 500's with ser# 11000-20000, however, I cannot find any direct crossover that without a doubt matches this application, DK does not list a set for this engine, I took a shot and ordered a set of points from Mfg. Supply part# 01-023-H3, I have not received yet but we will see, just wondering if one of you gurus have a solution.
Also, wondering if anyone has a dimension for clutch sheave offset, the manual give center to center distance but relies on JD tool for offset, I don't have any reference, basically piecing this together from a box.
Any help would be appreciated.
Thanks
Shane

[HoosierDeereMan]

Hi Shane,

The 500 engine should be a KEC-440. Some of the very last '73 500's came with the 440/5. The tag on the engine fan housing will tell you for sure. My service manual shows the KEC-440 and 440/5 should have a Denso ignition. The OEM CCW part number for the points is 25-0004-50. Mfg supply # is 01-026. The OEM CCW condenser part number is 25-0004-30 or 25-0004-60. Mfg supply # is 01-044.

There were two different clutches used on the 500. The Salsbury and the John Deere Comet. The offset is different depending on which clutch you have. Maybe someone who has a JDM-42 clutch alignment tool can measure and tell us the offset. I had it wrote down but can't find it. I was thinking 1/8" and 3/16". But my memory isn't the best.

I hope this helps.

Troy

[lwb140]

as far as clutch alignment goes my method may make some fret but it has worked very well for me several times , it goes like this , take the secondary off and clean the shaft apply some light lubricant install the secondary with out the key in the keyway . start engine and rev it until the clutch engages and spins secondary on the shaft . the secondary will center itself on the shaft where its happy and wants to run . shut engine off and shim according to where the secondary spun on the shaft . im sure folks here will challenge my method here but ive done this on several sleds and has yet to fail me . wade

[harleysportster]

as far as clutch alignment goes my method may make some fret but it has worked very well for me several times , it goes like this , take the secondary off and clean the shaft apply some light lubricant install the secondary with out the key in the keyway . start engine and rev it until the clutch engages and spins secondary on the shaft . the secondary will center itself on the shaft where its happy and wants to run . shut engine off and shim according to where the secondary spun on the shaft . im sure folks here will challenge my method here but ive done this on several sleds and has yet to fail me . wade

Your method works on the mid mount engines?

[lwb140]

After thinking about it , yes it should oy you would be moving the motor left to right rather than shimming the primary , It has been successful on the front mount sleds

[Roadking80]

Troy, not to argue, because I really appreciate the effort, but everything I find tells me different on the engine and points, I posed the question with engine/sled info to MFG. Supply and received a very direct answer of "no, we do not stock a set of points for the 73 John Deere 500.
I know they use "stock" pictures that may or may not represent actual item, but the picture of the 01-026 contactor is not the same style as what I have in my engine.
My engine does not have any suffix after the model code, however the following is copied from this website, which seems to be in-line with what I have.
also a page from the John Deere Manual I downloaded shows a KEC-440 /4 engine for 1973.
The page from JDPARTS.COM gives me the jd part number (AM53168) that nobody seems to have a crossover to.
Call me crazy but I think I have a KEC440/4 but I still have no points, the ones that I have coming from MFG. supply will be waiting for me tonight and I will check out to see how far off they are, but they look from the picture to be the same construction, but then some of the other models look the same also, so I have a crapshoot still at this point.
I will keep everyone posted, I cant be the only one with this rig.

COPIED FROM JDSLEDS.COM:
Model Year: 1972
TYPE CODE- 5000A
Serial # Range: 2,551 - 11,000
Manufacture Dates: May to November 1971
Number Produced: 4924
Engine: CCW KEC-440
MSRP: $1325
Specifications: 1972 500

Model Year: 1973
TYPE CODE- 5000B
Serial # Range: 11,001 - 20,000
Manufacture Dates: May to November 1972
Number Produced: 4792
Engine: CCW KEC-440
MSRP: $1335
Specifications:1973 500
Notes: In manuals, the 1973 model engines have a /4 after the model number, however the engine does not have this on the tag.
There were many small changes from 1972-1973, including:
The crankshaft output shaft diameter changed from 25 mm to 30 mm
Edge of the foot rest was flat - changed to a rolled lip
Brake light switch was located on brake band, changed to brake control handle
Rear grab bar was black (400) or chrome (500) and wraps around the back - changed to two pieces, in chrome
Fuel tank was painted green - changed to natural steel color
'72 had no leaping Deere logo on snow flap
Rectangular headlight - changed to round
Tail light was about 3" wide - widened to around 6"
Windsheld had chrome trim - changed to black
Gauges had chrome trim, changed to black
Console - the spark plug access was shorter - made larger, the fan exhaust exited straight out the side - now diverted downward
The kill switch and dimmer switch were attached directly to the handlebar - now built in to the handles
Hand grip - shape changed
Front bumper had 4 mounting points - changed to 6 with a reinforcement bar welded behind the tube
Handlebar pad and backrest options added
Hood latch and support was updated
Seat foam had 4 mounting screws - now has two tabs to tunnel and use two screws
Handlebars were changed along with lower mounting parts
Electrical output was raised, and the voltage regulator added
Air box added.

[harleysportster]

I found a listing of Kimpex numbers with the JD part #'s. You may be able to go to your local sled shop and get these if they are a KImpex dealer. Your number is not listed but the pictures apear to be correct.
http://www.transcanimports.com/download ... ensers.pdf

[HoosierDeereMan]

Shane,

No offense taken at all. I apologize for not giving the right info! I got that info from a 2008 Central snowmobile catalog. My computer won't open the link that Harley posted. So with that being said I found two used Denso point plates from KEC-440 engines in my parts stash. The number on the back of both plates is 038000-. After seeing these points the info I gave you is obviously wrong! Again sorry about that. Does your points plate number match this 038000- number? I looked closely at the points, condensers, the 2008 catalog info and the Mfg supply website photos. This is going to get confusing so bare with me. This catalog states the following for Denso ignitions:

KEC290,440S E&G, 2cyl"D" (Denso) Points OEM #25-0004-50 Our # 026 Condensor OEM 25-0004-30/60 Our #044.
KEC400 & 440RV(reed valve) "D" (Denso) Points OEM #25-0004-50 Our #028 Condensor OEM 36-0013-21 Our #046.

Take this info and go to Mfg supply website. I compared the points in both of my plates to the photos of points the Mfg website shows. Look very close at Artic Cat #01-028. Central's old part number was 028. If the photo is correct those points match the points in both the plates I have. In the condenser section #01-046 matches what I have on my plates. They even state it as for CCW. Take this for what's it's worth. But I'm positive this info is correct. You'll have to be the judge.

Keep us posted.

Good Luck,
Troy

[HoosierDeereMan]

We had a big discussion on here several years back about the 440/4 engine thing. I'm thinking we decided the manual was wrong. The conversation got pretty intense between Rodimus Prime who is no longer a member and a few other members here. If memory serves wasn't the 440/4 an aircraft engine? Anyone remember this? Hopefully 400Brian will comment.

Troy

[harleysportster]

O, I remember Rodimus.

[lwb140]

I just converted my dads 75 400 to CDi ! Worked fantastic and no more points !! Just an idea. Wade

[400brian]

As far as I know, while the manual lists '73 piston ported engines as /4s, no one has ever seen an engine data plate with those numbers on it. So we've concluded that the manual is incorrect.

Your sled should have been born with a Denso ignition, but many things have happened in the 40 years since, I have a '74 340/5 that has a Denso ignition on it, my guess is that it was a "take off" from a '75 X8.

[HoosierDeereMan]

Here's another place.

http://www.partsreloaded.com/Snowmobile ... 000451-450

Troy

[ljm]

Wade

What all parts did you use to convert it to CDI?

[lwb140]

Hello , I used a 78 Liquifire pick-up coil and stator and flywheel . I used a dk trader CDi .the only issue was it has electric start and the ring gear on the point flywheel is smaller I'd , I had the of of the flywheel about .030 to fit the ring gear , works great ! Pulled white wire out out of the sled plug and plugged direct into the black kill wire on the CDi . .

To be clear the ring gear on the /5 motor had more teeth , was larger diameter than the /23 ring gear I wasn't expecting that. Wade