troubleshooting help needed on a Spit

Technical topics related to machines powered by Kioritz/CCW & Kohler motors.
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JDT
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Joined: Wed Nov 21, 2007 1:00 am
Real Name: Todd
Location: Milbank South Dakota

troubleshooting help needed on a Spit

Post by JDT »

Saturday I voluntiered to help a friend get his 1979 Spitfire(Kohler) running. The sled had not been run in 5 years so we did the usual checks and fixes that one would expect to do on a sled that has sat for that long.

Here is what we did and the results of the tests....
Complete fuel system cleaning with new filters and lines.
Fresh gas/oil mix added.
Carb disassembled, cleaned and check (was not very dirty at all). Fuel pump also.
Compression tested at 95 PTO and 105 MAG. (low but think it will go up after running as rings may loosen up)
Good spark on both sides.
Removed airbox and check for mouse nest (was clean as can be)
Removed exhaust and check for mice nest also(none found). Blew air through( OK)

Started engine. Runs but does not sound right. Idles at 1500 rpm( too low) That is the first problem. All lights and gauges work.
The second problem is we could not shut it off.:) Had to unplug external coil to kill it.
And the giant killer.... absolutley nothing happens when you squeeze the throttle.
Rpm stays steady, engine sound does not change. (throttle cable is fine, carb slide moves freely).

Ok so after it stopped we found that the PTO side of the exhaust manifold is cool to the touch. The Mag side is hot. Spark still good on both sides. Plugs look ok.
Restarted engine. Unpluged wire from pto spark plug and rpm didn't change.
Unplug mag spark plug wire and rpm drops and after 10 seconds engine dies.

Checked over wiring to find out why key or kill switch will not stop the engine. Wiring is in very good shape. No splices or modification of any kind. Tested switches with meter... good. Checked continuity of wires with meter. Found yellow wire from stator had bad crimp connector at the terminal block on bulkhead. Fixed it and tested good.
Continued testing ignition wiring and found an open between the the terminal on the block where the white/black wire from the two switches and the engine itself. Attached a aligator jumper wire from terminal to engine. Tested spark. Ok now both switches work and will shut off engine. So we assume that the engine ground connection on the stator is bad. Disasemble recoil, remove flywheel, find screw with brown wire. Removed screw. Clean up some corrosion. Reattach wire with screw and retest. Still open. OK so we have a bad brown wire.
Left temporary jumper wire between terminal and engine case so we could use key to work on engine problem.

Removed carb from boot again. Recheck everything. Started motor. Nothing changed except key now works. Removed entire exhaust. Run engine on open manifold. Still will not throttle up only now it is louder.


:)
Recheck spark and retested compression. Now 100 and 110. Removed both heads anyway. Gaskets looked fine. Slight carbon build-up on both pistons. Domes look fine. Cylinder walls look excellent. Some signs of detonation on heads but I've seem worse.

Reassmeble engine and restarted (always starts on one pull by the way) Nothing changed. Sprayed starting fluid on PTO crank seal. No change in RPM. Still limping on PTO side and no throttle responce what so ever.

OK guys.... I give up. I am out of ideas. We spent 4 hours on this and are no closer to the problem than when we started.
Any thoughts, ideas, observations or comments would be appreciated.

Thanks, Todd
Todd Schrupp

Milbank SD
Spitfire79
Posts: 208
Joined: Wed Dec 28, 2005 1:00 am
Location: Lockport, MB.

troubleshooting help needed on a Spit

Post by Spitfire79 »

Have you switched plug wires side to side? switched / changed plugs? Sounds electrical

Jeff
Lockport, MB.
1979 Spitfires ( 2 ), 1980 Liquifires ( 2 ), 1999 A/C ZR 440 SnoPro, 1996 A/C ZRT600, 1929 Graham Paige 612
Gotta love a 2 stroke !
harleysportster
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Joined: Thu Jul 14, 2005 12:00 am
Real Name: Pat Scott
Location: Southeast Pa.

troubleshooting help needed on a Spit

Post by harleysportster »

JDT, go to CHAT
'76 440 cyclone
'76 440 liquifire
'78 440 Cyclone
'75 JDX8 (sold to a member here)
'78 Liquifire(CrossCountry Clone)
'80 Liquifire(sold)
JDT
Posts: 5561
Joined: Wed Nov 21, 2007 1:00 am
Real Name: Todd
Location: Milbank South Dakota

troubleshooting help needed on a Spit

Post by JDT »

Hi Pat,
Never chated on this site before.
When I click on chat it shuts down my browser.

Todd
Todd Schrupp

Milbank SD
spitty
Posts: 40
Joined: Sat Apr 01, 2006 12:00 am
Location: South Western Ontario

troubleshooting help needed on a Spit

Post by spitty »

I believe you will find your cdi to have gone bad and is firing both cylinders at the same time which is why there is no response when you hit the throttle, I have a 79 Spit and problem was similar, would start, not easily though, idle but would not throttle up and I was fortunate enough I was able borrow a known working unit, once installed a couple of pulls later the spit was working properly. Not sure if there are specs on the faq for checking your other components. Spitty
JDT
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Joined: Wed Nov 21, 2007 1:00 am
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Location: Milbank South Dakota

troubleshooting help needed on a Spit

Post by JDT »

Rich, this has a Nippon Denso CDI box.
Two wires on the external coil plus a ground so I assume that it fires seperatly.
Will be back on it tomorrow.
Todd Schrupp

Milbank SD
spitty
Posts: 40
Joined: Sat Apr 01, 2006 12:00 am
Location: South Western Ontario

troubleshooting help needed on a Spit

Post by spitty »

TakeItToTheLimit wrote: He may have a bad CDI but most fire both cylinders at the same time. Prestolite was the exception...the fail mode that I talk about checking with the horizontal line and vertical line on the primary clutch face is only for Prestolite CDI Systems.

-Rich
Rich is this called a waste spark on 2 strokers. I know that is what it called in the
4 stroke world, I was told that was probably what was wrong with my cdi by a tech that worked at the local JD dealer back in the day, I don't know what the common symptom was when these units went bad, but when I told my local guy about the no response on the throttle he said that was what was wrong with the cdi, mind you I had gone through everything else fuel etc and was starting to pull my hair out. Spitty
JDT
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Real Name: Todd
Location: Milbank South Dakota

troubleshooting help needed on a Spit

Post by JDT »

Spitty, I know what you mean by pulling out of the hair.


:)
Todd Schrupp

Milbank SD
JDT
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Joined: Wed Nov 21, 2007 1:00 am
Real Name: Todd
Location: Milbank South Dakota

troubleshooting help needed on a Spit

Post by JDT »

Update on the Spitfire.....

Installed a CDI box today and like magic, it now runs just fine.

Still puzzled as to why it behaved the way it did.

Seen many a sled run hitting on only one side and they all would accelerate, at least on the stand.

This Spit did nothing.
Now if there was just some snow to really test it......
Todd Schrupp

Milbank SD
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Danzig
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Real Name: Paul File
Location: Van Orin, Illinois

troubleshooting help needed on a Spit

Post by Danzig »

Sounds like the timing was so RETARDED it had no power at all.
1973 JDX8
1978 Liquifire 340
1980 Liquifire 440 CC Racer
1980 Liquifire 440
1982 Liquifire 440


"Gotta Lick It Before You Stick It"
Spitfire79
Posts: 208
Joined: Wed Dec 28, 2005 1:00 am
Location: Lockport, MB.

troubleshooting help needed on a Spit

Post by Spitfire79 »

Hey JDT
Did you put a used box on or find a new CDI. I was wondering if anyone has trid the DI from Pats small engine. Its listed for the Kohler. I nee one.

Jeff
Lockport, MB.
1979 Spitfires ( 2 ), 1980 Liquifires ( 2 ), 1999 A/C ZR 440 SnoPro, 1996 A/C ZRT600, 1929 Graham Paige 612
Gotta love a 2 stroke !
JDT
Posts: 5561
Joined: Wed Nov 21, 2007 1:00 am
Real Name: Todd
Location: Milbank South Dakota

troubleshooting help needed on a Spit

Post by JDT »

Jeff I found a used one in a pile of parts.
Todd Schrupp

Milbank SD
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