snowmobile industry future

rmreid · Post by **rmreid** » Mon Feb 25, 2008 9:47 pm

The newest snowmobile that I own will be the last year John Deere made one. I'm 43 and can't seem to leave the past. My summer activity is motocross and the newest bike I own is a 79 yz125 and I felt that was pushing the newness level. Call me old fashioned but all the "new" technology just spells $$$$ and a headache when it comes to try and fix it yourself. I even feel 1984 is a bit on the new side. Oh.....hold on I have to clear the cobwebs off my keyboard....

Randy

Post by **JRC ETD** » Mon Feb 25, 2008 10:10 pm

Sorry Ed......30 years of business and some of that educational dribble mixed in makes theory sound like a plan! Jon

buck43 · Post by **buck43** » Mon Feb 25, 2008 10:43 pm

Jon I like the idea of electric but it might be alittle heavy. Maybe Rainville can come up with one powered by hydrygen! Shannon

JDT · Post by **JDT** » Mon Feb 25, 2008 11:14 pm

Who is making the solar powered snowmobile?

Liquifire 4/6 · Post by **Liquifire 4/6** » Tue Feb 26, 2008 12:36 am

_FIII wrote:

Also by 2015 one of the now big 4 will start using diesel motors in their utility sleds. Possibly outsourced Kubota developed engines.

Yeah Richard, now wouldn't that throw the gas jockey for a loop pulling up to the diesel pump with your orange sled.

Jon, you bring up some very interesting points.....all of which I am in complete agreement with. I also think that if the manufacturers are going to survive, they will need to start treating their dealers with a little more respect. They can't continue to forcefeed product to the dealer on the premise that if the dealer sold 60 sleds last year, he should be able to sell 80 next year...so that's what we'll make him order whether he wants them or not.

I think sled makers will need to concentrate on smaller cc, more affordable and more efficient machines and perhaps a bit more retro stying is in order. I have absolutely no desire at present to purchase a new sled and I think it's mainly because I don't like the look of any of them. In addition to that, it would appear that all the current sleds would be an absolute nightmare to work on.....and to me, working on my sleds is almost as much fun as riding them.

smitfire · Post by **smitfire** » Tue Feb 26, 2008 12:58 am

if they get diesel wouldnt they gel up

grantnelson00 · Post by **grantnelson00** » Tue Feb 26, 2008 9:16 am

Okay, so some of the snowmobile manufacturers are decreasing their employees and making less snowmobiles and more atv's.

Maybe their snowmobile divisions aren't quite as important to them anymore.

Maybe these snowmobile divisions are really just diamonds in the ruff awaiting someone with superior management skills and a huge service network to really make them sing.

A company that could do huge volume and truly shape what snowmobiles will do for the next century in the way of work, fun, agriculture-maybe even national defense.

Hmm, what major, world-wide company could do that? Someone with a hugely recognizable corporate face who's quality of product is unchallenged? Perhaps someone who had past experience in the snowmobile market?

Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm.

69camaro · Post by **69camaro** » Sat Mar 01, 2008 3:34 am

There are two reasons I have not purchased a new sled. Too ugly and too expensive. I'm sure they are nice but I just can't get over the looks and prices. 88 Indy 650 for $4950. 97 Indy XLT 600 for $5100 and $200 of free goodies. 99 Indy XC 600 for $5150. Now you can get a IQ 600 Shift stripped down(no tach, no decals, no gas shocks for $7000. What a bargain, NOT. I'm going to get a different trail sled when the ol' XC 600 topples the 20,000 mile mark. Turned over 16,000 this week. I think my next sled will be a 2004 PRO X 600 or 700. Maybe a 2004-2005 XC600 or 700. Honestly, the last Polaris's I would want. The only new sleds I can even stand to look at are the new Cats and the Yamaha RX-1. That anniversery RX-1 looks awesome. It has decals like a old SRX. Oh well, maybe at 44 I'm just getting too old to like the new stuff anyway. I personally have bad knees from construction and would never ride a sled standing up and BBBBRRRRRRR. Nothing against snowcross. I just think the snowmobile industry as a whole should be worrying more about trail sleds and less about making snowcross sleds for the trail. I think they also are driving the prices up because of so much retooling when the snow conditions have not warranted. Really, I wish all four companies would idle down some for their own good. Refine what they have. Maybe hire someone to make them look nicer, worry about retooling the looks.Duane

kenwaters · Post by **kenwaters** » Sat Mar 01, 2008 11:09 am

All good points Jon and Grant.

It is certainly safe to say that the brightest spot in the snowmobile industry is the vintage market. I foresee a contraction in the market to three manufacturers, and if they don't see that lightweight, less complex to work on, smoother design lines (not making them look like a stealth fighter) and retro decal packages (say a 600 cc Polaris Liquifire, a TXL with the seventies star stripe on the hood, a Moto Ski Super Sonic, the sexy hood striping on the mid seventies Arctic race sleds, or the dead gorgeous look of the Yamaha SSR) that are the wave of the future, then the remaining manufacturers will see even more of a contraction in the marketplace.

I think that the industry could use a touch of a wakeup, Ski-Doo has pounded its chest about the 400 lb TNT, Arctic proclaims it is the leader with suspension technology, Polaris claims the most powerful powerplant, and Yamaha says it's four stroke technology is the wave of the future. I think they could all take a look back and see that Deere was an industry leader ACROSS THE SPECTRUM way back when it came to producing lightweight, simple, easy on the eyes sleds that were based on product reliability and fuel efficeincy.

My brother in law just bought an 07 Arctic Cat F5 fuel injected snowmobile. I will say that after riding it compared to my lead sled (that would be the 800 cc Storm I ride) the bump soak is much improved, (it should be stated that my sled is not set up properly) but the mileage isn't significantly improved and the 80 hp powerplant is powerful enough for a 100 lb 16 yr old who wants to jump snowdrifts, but really doesn't fit me (or anyone who rides a 65 hp liquifire)that well.

Tougher emissions standards are coming, and it is really going to force the industry to take a long look at how power and reliability and fuel consumption can all equate to a "green" two stroke snowmobile. I think Yamaha will be the one to bow out of the sled market, their four stroke sleds are "assembly heavy" with little sucess on a heavily promoted race endeavour, minimal gains in fuel economy and expensive. I predict a return of the triple coupled with SDI to clean the emissions up, lightweight simple drivetrains as an industry standard and relying on their roots (decal packages and hood lines that appeal to vintage guys) to regain marketshare.

Duane, you really need to test ride a new sled, I mean put some serious trail miles on one, they really are easier on the knees than you think, you ride them more like a four wheeler. Not standing up like the snocross guys.

ChickenRat · Post by **ChickenRat** » Sat Mar 01, 2008 3:24 pm

First off, I must say that I really enjoy the vintage sleds, they are what I grew up on. I ride them a few miles each year but that's about it. I will always have vintage sleds.
I currently own an '05 & '06 Ski-Doo GSX in the REV platform that we use as our everyday riders. These new sleds are so much quieter, fuel efficient, reliable, better riding, warmer, better emissions, everything about them is better except perhaps the looks. When I first bought my sleds, I really didn't care for the looks of them. I still don't think they are the best looking sleds out there..... The reason I bought them is because we still ride quite a few miles each year and anything that I can do to save my back and knees is worth it to me to maintain my mobility down the road. Electric start and reverse aren't even options for me anymore, neither is rider forward, they're a must. My single complaint about the REV chassis is the inability to stretch your feet out. That has been cured with the new generation REV XP. I had the chance to ride a new REV XP this last weekend on our annual Canada trip. Let me say that I didn't think they could improve much on my chassis, but they did. You now have the ability to stretch out and sit in an even more upright position which is hugely comfortable and puts you in "attack" mode at all times. The weight loss is noticeable as well. After seeing & feeling how the suspensions work on these things and the terrain they gobble up effortlessly for 500+ miles you just know that thousands of hours and dollars have gone into the engineering of these new platforms and suspensions. They are actually incredibly complex and well designed by all manufacturers. All this costs money. At this point, I'm still willing to pay a premium to save my body. I'd rather pay now rather than later(physically).
With sales being down, EPA breathing down the manufacturers necks, and the publics demand for a better product, prices are going to continue to climb. After BRP refines these new XP platforms and I give the new E-Tec motors a couple of years on the market, I'm going to move into a couple of new or carryover REV XP GSX's again. With younger generations moving into snowmobiling, the manufacturuers are going to continue to make sleds that we don't approve of in the looks department. But they are in fact better in every other way. On the other hand, if sales continue to decline, what's going to happen? Yamaha and BRP can take a hit financially as they are some of the largest companies in the world. They could wait things out. I don't think that Arctic Cat is in the best financial shape and Polaris is somewhere in between.
If I want to tinker(and I do) and live in the past(which I do), I drive my vintage sleds. If I want to ride, I take out my reliable, comfortable, quiet, low smoke GSX's and will as long as I can.

Robb

Post by **Matt** » Sat Mar 01, 2008 3:49 pm

Am I the only one who likes the styling of the new sleds? I didn't like them so much in the late 90s-early 2ks, but now think they have gotten better, since they don't have to be so wide to make the trailing arms work.

ChickenRat · Post by **ChickenRat** » Sat Mar 01, 2008 3:54 pm

I think the new Yamaha's, Arctic Cat's, and Ski-Doo XP's are nice looking in real life. The new Polaris's get two thumbs down from me. Currently, I'm only luke warm to to appearance of my GSX's but they perform so wonderfully that I just love them, best sleds I've ever owned period.

Robb

smitfire · Post by **smitfire** » Sat Mar 01, 2008 4:40 pm

i like the vintage and then the newer ones, not so much in between,
the new ones ride so nice, even in the 97- and up, so much suspension and so much power, but if i got stuck in one i would need a pickup
i think there is going to be so much improving taking place coming up, more power than the 69 camarro, faster than cars, it will get crazy

what do you guys think on price???

wut have you heard about a new company?? kawi and suzuki sled

is there a 2000 dollar sled comming out, brand new??
cause for 11000 you can get a pretty nice atv or smaller truck

Post by **JRC ETD** » Sat Mar 01, 2008 7:39 pm

Good thread.....I'm OK with the new REV stealth styling, the loud tribal graphics are getting old, in design less is more for me as I like clean, sharp definition! Sleds have to get affordable, mfg.'s cannot over produce and stuff the dealer channel with products that take 2 years to clear out, and have mutiple recalls. The shareholders, dealers, customers, should be frustrated with the current industry model as it is not providing value for any of the stakeholders.....yes the new sleds ride better than the old sleds, but think hard.... is this all that has happenend in sled technology in 30 years? are there no real "change agents' to drive a new course? Remember we had watercooling 30 years ago! In reality we have better riding sleds that have EFI and cost 3 times more! The BRP investment is focused and strategic, Arctic's sleds ride well as Arctic stays close to the pulse of the customer. Polaris has lost the customer connection and it shows in the sleds, Yamaha has nice sleds, but are heavy and still lack handling. But the real value is in good sleds and world class business processes! Global sourcing, lean mfg., customer focus, world class design, and quality are the cornerstones to success! JRC

Post by **JRC ETD** » Sat Mar 01, 2008 9:01 pm

Rich...exactly!