Oh no Cyclone

mgabl072 · Post by **mgabl072** » Sun Feb 01, 2009 6:55 pm

Today I took my cyclone 440 out for a ride. I recently had replaced a bad timing ring that was giving spark issues. That all resolved I headed out on the trail. It ran great. After 5 miles I stopped big smile on my face checked everything over, all looked good. 3 more miles down the trail she just stops; loses all power. Prior to all power loss, no bogging no smoke no missing. It was riding great. What concerns me is she will not turn over all all. When you pull the recoil it will not turn. Is this what they call a seized engine? It looks like the metal around the fan shroud has discolored, over heating?. I am concerned I might have just blown my engine. But no loud cracks or booms or gas/oil loss. She just stopped. The engine did feel hot. It was fairly warm out today, 36 degrees but I would have not thought that would have contributed.

Where do I start? I fear I have just been put on the bench for the challenge ride.

Matt

JDT · Post by **JDT** » Sun Feb 01, 2009 7:02 pm

Sounds oh too familiar.

Pull the heads and have a look see at what is left of your pistons.

My bet is they have melted down to the rings on at least one side.

But there is still hope.
You will find a clean looking used Cyclone 440 topend on ebay.

Bid and win it. While you are waiting for that put new saels on the bottom end.

Post by **Matt** » Sun Feb 01, 2009 7:06 pm

Sorry to hear. Pull your plugs, heads, & cylinders. You need to find out what happened first. Was any other work done on this engine in the past?

mgabl072 · Post by **mgabl072** » Mon Feb 02, 2009 10:31 am

Today I will start the process of seeing what actually went wrong. I will take some pictures. My question is lets say I pull the heads and a piston is toast. How do you determine what made it toast. Did my cooling fan stop or did a ring come unsealed or do you just throw in another piston and cylinder and move on down the road. I worry about that a little. JDT did you ever figure out what happened in your case?

Also I said I had a bad timing ring that did not allow spark to the left cylinder. I replaced the timing ring and got spark on both sides. Could it be that I still have a spark/electical issue that cased this.

I guess we will see

mgabl072 · Post by **mgabl072** » Mon Feb 02, 2009 12:46 pm

One thought I just had. My cyclone has a 440/21 engine not the orginal 440/22. Prior to this weekend's melt down I just got done replacing the CDI, stator and timing ring using all NOS parts for a cyclone 440. Could those electrical parts be too strong for a 21 engine thus causing too much spark and a melt down?

Thoughts.

JDT · Post by **JDT** » Mon Feb 02, 2009 1:23 pm

My issue was a bad intake gasket.

It may be that you have a serious timing error.

Or a combination of little things.

If it was mine I would tear it completely down and clean every part thoughly and look closely at every part.

Then replace all damaged and questionable parts. And look at that fan and belt also.

Do you have a service manual? If not it is money well spent.

harleysportster · Post by **harleysportster** » Mon Feb 02, 2009 2:25 pm

mgabl072 wrote:One thought I just had. My cyclone has a 440/21 engine not the orginal 440/22. Prior to this weekend's melt down I just got done replacing the CDI, stator and timing ring using all NOS parts for a cyclone 440. Could those electrical parts be too strong for a 21 engine thus causing too much spark and a melt down?

Thoughts.

When you replaced the stator/timing ring, did you take the time and check the actual timing with a light. The timing could be way off. After assemble and before you start the engine, pressure test it to check all the seals and gaskets. What spark plugs are you using?

400brian · Post by **400brian** » Mon Feb 02, 2009 9:25 pm

Rich

Do you have any idea how many degrees of timing adjustment the slots are good for?

mgabl072 · Post by **mgabl072** » Mon Feb 02, 2009 10:16 pm

Thank you Harleysportster, JDT, Rich and Brian.

I bet it was the timing way off as you suggested. I just picked the sled up this past week with the new timing ring installed. I am not much of a mechnic, so I have most everything done by a local snowmobile shop. They are really good guys but I bet in the rush to get the sled out the door and on to the next sled they forgot to check/adjust the timing.

I am fortunate in that I had a spare engine (and it is a 440/22) waiting in the wings with everything (pistons, rings, crank, seals, fan and recoil. It does not have a stator, flywheel, trigger so I hope to use those parts from the dead engine. The snowmobile shop felt terrible and said they would diagnosis what happend, install the new engine and get it back to life in a few days. I just hope no electrical parts were damaged because that would set back the progress as I would have to hunt that stuff down.

Any words of advise that I should "kindly' remind the shop to do would be appreciated.

Matt

harleysportster · Post by **harleysportster** » Mon Feb 02, 2009 10:32 pm

Matt,
The timing may have contributed but I would lean towards bad crank seals or to hot of a spark plug.
Have the shop replace the crank seals, pressure test your spare engine and check the timing before putting it in service.
We can provide timing instructions if needed.

mgabl072 · Post by **mgabl072** » Mon Feb 02, 2009 11:57 pm

What spark plug do you recommend?

Where can I find the timing instructions?

Thanks a bunch.
Matt

harleysportster · Post by **harleysportster** » Tue Feb 03, 2009 12:08 am

spark plugs, NGK 10's, the timing instrucions are in another post.

harleysportster · Post by **harleysportster** » Tue Feb 03, 2009 12:17 am

Timing procedure:
http://s12.zetaboards.com/jdsleds/topic/5018427/1/#post8015574

mgabl072 · Post by **mgabl072** » Thu Feb 12, 2009 8:03 pm

Well it took a little bit for the guys to get to the cyclone because I do not do much mechanic work and I depend on others. The top end of the engine is fine but what went was the bottom end. All the bearings are shot, would not move at all. When I restored the cyclone 100 miles ago I had the bottom end all redone with new bearings and seals.

Here is their theory. I was using 93 octane, 50:1 oil to gas ratio. But I was using Amsoil Synthetic. They feel that with 50:1 ratio coupled with the synthetic oil did not provide enough lubrication and the bearings could not take it.

They feel I should move more toward a 20:1 ratio and use good old fashion oil. They feel this will keep the lubrication up.

I am happy all it is a bottom end and the top end is fine.

What do you guys think about the theory and their suggestions.

Matt

Cabindweller · Post by **Cabindweller** » Thu Feb 12, 2009 9:01 pm

I Don't Know about 20:1 I was told by my mechanic, that to much oil can be as harmful as not enough oil in premix. Your stock jets wont meater that thick of a ratio properly. That what I was told anyway, take it with a grain of salt. Besides you will be fouling alot of plugs.

Jerry