That's what happens when Yugo looks into fuel cell technology!
Kenny
295/S & 340/S pistons
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ICCSF 108
- Posts: 4369
- Joined: Sun Jul 17, 2005 12:00 am
- Real Name: Kenny Heins, AKA Grumpy
- Location: Blue Springs Mo.
- Contact:
295/S & 340/S pistons
Last edited by ICCSF 108 on Sun Apr 12, 2009 3:50 am, edited 1 time in total.
AKA: Kenny, Grumpy, Mr. Richard Head
"I Hunt For it, Purchase it, Haul it, Sometimes Repair it, Sometimes Break it, Then Fix it Again, Label it, Warehouse it, Talk About it, So NOW, HOW Can I Take Any Less $$ For It?"
"God I love the smell of KLOTZ in the morning, That smell, you know that Gasoline/Oil Smell, MAKES the whole place SMELL like.. LIKE VICTORY. You know someday the 2 strokers are gonna end..."
Do Anti-War Protesters have reunions? If so what do they TALK about?
"I Hunt For it, Purchase it, Haul it, Sometimes Repair it, Sometimes Break it, Then Fix it Again, Label it, Warehouse it, Talk About it, So NOW, HOW Can I Take Any Less $$ For It?"
"God I love the smell of KLOTZ in the morning, That smell, you know that Gasoline/Oil Smell, MAKES the whole place SMELL like.. LIKE VICTORY. You know someday the 2 strokers are gonna end..."
Do Anti-War Protesters have reunions? If so what do they TALK about?
-
GreenFever
- Posts: 99
- Joined: Fri Dec 12, 2008 1:00 am
- Location: Thumb of Michigan
Re: 295/S & 340/S pistons
Any news on the 295/S pistons? I found 2 more 295/S's at the salvage yard the other day so it looks like I will need at least one more pair of pistons.
Re: 295/S & 340/S pistons
Hi Guys,
I just finally was able to get back on this new board, as I've been fighting the issue of it not recognizing my old username, password or a combination of the two. Finally, I just damn gave up and created a new one; hence my different screen name now.
As some of you may or may not know. Last month, we moved our entire business operation to a new larger facility in Fort Wayne and it was a ***MAJOR PITA***!!!
I thought moving to a new home was stressfull...now trying to move an entire, fully developed and established business operation. Yes indeed my fellow jd friends...it sux! We've now been here about 30 days or so and we're still unpacking; therefore, I haven't spoken to Wiseco in a few weeks, since I've been so darn busy around here lately.
I did call them Wednesday, but my contact there was out on vacation until Monday of this coming week, so I expect to talk with him again then. I'm assuming they have some new information for us, since they've had the factory 295/s and 340/s cylinders there for piston fitment/development that Kenny lended then to look at.
I'll post what I know Monday or Tuesday after I have a chance to speak with them again.
Phil "PJ" Rickard
I just finally was able to get back on this new board, as I've been fighting the issue of it not recognizing my old username, password or a combination of the two. Finally, I just damn gave up and created a new one; hence my different screen name now.
As some of you may or may not know. Last month, we moved our entire business operation to a new larger facility in Fort Wayne and it was a ***MAJOR PITA***!!!
I thought moving to a new home was stressfull...now trying to move an entire, fully developed and established business operation. Yes indeed my fellow jd friends...it sux! We've now been here about 30 days or so and we're still unpacking; therefore, I haven't spoken to Wiseco in a few weeks, since I've been so darn busy around here lately. I did call them Wednesday, but my contact there was out on vacation until Monday of this coming week, so I expect to talk with him again then. I'm assuming they have some new information for us, since they've had the factory 295/s and 340/s cylinders there for piston fitment/development that Kenny lended then to look at.
I'll post what I know Monday or Tuesday after I have a chance to speak with them again.
Phil "PJ" Rickard
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ICCSF 108
- Posts: 4369
- Joined: Sun Jul 17, 2005 12:00 am
- Real Name: Kenny Heins, AKA Grumpy
- Location: Blue Springs Mo.
- Contact:
Re: 295/S & 340/S pistons
Thanks for taking the time PJ, I know it is appreciated by all..
Kenny
Kenny
AKA: Kenny, Grumpy, Mr. Richard Head
"I Hunt For it, Purchase it, Haul it, Sometimes Repair it, Sometimes Break it, Then Fix it Again, Label it, Warehouse it, Talk About it, So NOW, HOW Can I Take Any Less $$ For It?"
"God I love the smell of KLOTZ in the morning, That smell, you know that Gasoline/Oil Smell, MAKES the whole place SMELL like.. LIKE VICTORY. You know someday the 2 strokers are gonna end..."
Do Anti-War Protesters have reunions? If so what do they TALK about?
"I Hunt For it, Purchase it, Haul it, Sometimes Repair it, Sometimes Break it, Then Fix it Again, Label it, Warehouse it, Talk About it, So NOW, HOW Can I Take Any Less $$ For It?"
"God I love the smell of KLOTZ in the morning, That smell, you know that Gasoline/Oil Smell, MAKES the whole place SMELL like.. LIKE VICTORY. You know someday the 2 strokers are gonna end..."
Do Anti-War Protesters have reunions? If so what do they TALK about?
-
GreenFever
- Posts: 99
- Joined: Fri Dec 12, 2008 1:00 am
- Location: Thumb of Michigan
Re: 295/S & 340/S pistons
Yeah they were the pair in Cass City. Pretty rough but between the 3 that I own now I think I can make 2 good ones. I still do not have a pipe, can or air box between them.
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Mike Strat
- Posts: 9
- Joined: Wed May 20, 2009 3:35 pm
- Location: Saskatchewan
Re: 295/S & 340/S pistons
Has there been any update on the pistons? I just want to stay in the loop. 
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WinnipegStPaul9
- Posts: 5577
- Joined: Sat Jul 23, 2005 12:00 am
- Real Name: Don Amber
- Location: Churubusco, IN
Re: 295/S & 340/S pistons
Nope. I stay in touch with PJ so him or I will let everyone know as soon as we can. DA
Feel free to check out our website www.buscobullet.com for restorations or parts.
Re: 295/S & 340/S pistons
If Wiseco is telling you theres no casting to start with for the 295/S. They could possibly use the casting from the 2011 piston for the 295/S cutting the cost. I'm not wanting to step on toes here as I have pistons. Just keep costs down for everyone. EBAY #220285091064
Thanks,
Ted
3 Liquidators
1-340/S
1-295/S
1-78 Cross Country Liquifire
Gave away-sold-swapped:8 Liquidators, 78 C.C. Liquifire, 340/S, 295/S, 84 Snowfire, 82 Liquifire, 80 Liquifire, 78 440 liquifire, 77 Liquifire.
Ted
3 Liquidators
1-340/S
1-295/S
1-78 Cross Country Liquifire
Gave away-sold-swapped:8 Liquidators, 78 C.C. Liquifire, 340/S, 295/S, 84 Snowfire, 82 Liquifire, 80 Liquifire, 78 440 liquifire, 77 Liquifire.
Re: 295/S & 340/S pistons
Hi Guys,
Just throwing in a post too since I am still in for at least a couple sets too. Thanks again Kenny, Pj, and anyone else who is helping!
Craig
Just throwing in a post too since I am still in for at least a couple sets too. Thanks again Kenny, Pj, and anyone else who is helping!
Craig
Re: 295/S & 340/S pistons-UPDATE
UPDATE 6/23/09
Sorry for the sporadic updates, but as some of you already know, I've been trying to get in touch with my contact at Wiseco that is heading up this endeavor to get an update. However, for some reason unknown to me, I've never gotten any return phone calls or emails for weeks- even after I've tried to contact them 6 times! Needless to say, I began to get worried... Well, I just got off the phone with my contact at Wiseco Special Products Engineering regarding this project and found out some new engineering information for this design and the reason for their delay in returning my phone calls/email attempts.
First off... My contact there had a mild heart attack a while ago at the age of 33!! It seems he was burning the candle at both ends for far too long, drinking 5-6 Rockstar Energy Drinks per day to stay awake and the stresses of work (including his personal life) finally caught up with him. He was out of the office forever while he was in the Hospital. I didn't know that and felt like a jerk after giving him a hard time on the phone today when he finally answered for not ever returning my phone messages.... Here is the email he just sent me before I got a chance to read it, calling him first~
""Hi Phil -
I apologize for the delay in response, I was out of the office a few weeks from a heart attack and struggling to get back up to speed. But to answer your question in regards to the cylinders and piston samples you sent in for review, they are here safe and sound. Engineering had reviewed the cylinders and found an alternative ring pin location that would work on the forging to retain a two ring design for this application. But after further investigation on the transfer skirt area of the forging. They have informed me that the transfer skirt will not fit the existing forging, the transfer opening will vent into the exhaust port as it opens near TDC. I've attached a PDF file of the findings. The JD295s and JD340s projects are both on hold in Engineering. The next step to move forward on either of these project would require the construction of new forging punch. Again, sorry for the delay on my part.""
They had a chance to fully inspect the sample 295s/340s pistons and cylinders that Kenny had graciously lended us to borrow, in order to come up with a piston design that would fit this application. Here is what they have came up with to date.
JD 295/s Piston Kit
As mentioned before earlier in this thread, the 295s pistons were going to require brand new, dedicated tooling to produce a piston that you folks want, however, that intial capital investment costs would be approx. $4047 for the tooling/punch dies, which didn't include any machining process costs required for the finish product, nor rings, pins, or circlips costs either. Here is the text from earlier in this thread that applies the same for today.
The Bad News~
Due to the unique and odd-ball specifications of the 295/s piston design and since there hasn't been a piston type like this produced since the 70's, using JD's standards from wayyyy back then; Wiseco is unable to place this design on any of their existing forge tooling. Out of the seven(7) forgings they had available that was even remotely close, they all fell short in existing design, due to the piston material thickness and pin boss length for the 18mm pin diameter. Addtionally, the transfer skirt and ring indexing pin hump on the interior of the forging was also a key reason the original design was of poor placement.
The Good News~
The pistons can still be produced with new tooling...BUT, the cost is going to be much higher per kit, since this tooling is special for this odd-ball design. This would require the design / construction of a new forge punch that Wiseco can use with their existing dies to reduce overall cost. Due to the unique design parameters of this piston design, Wiseco is offering to engineer a forge punch at their cost of $4,047.00, with the commitment of a 100 unit production run in the foundry. This cost doesn't include the other periphreal parts that would be included in the kit, so I'd guess each piston kit in this format would probably come in at $200+ or more when it was all said and done. Of course, Wiseco would firm up the costs much more accurately if you folks decide to move forward with a commitment/intent to purchase.
JD 340/s Piston Kit
After carefull consideration of the ring indexing pin issue previously described in this thread for the 340s slug, Wiseco did come up with a good solution to the problem after looking at Kenny's sample 340s cylinder, where they could use some of their existing tooling from the 'Dator piston design and re-locate the 340s piston ring indexing pin to the 'Dator location. However, that still left the biggest problem to overcome, the transfer skirt area....
The Bad News~
Their current in-house tooling would produce a forging that would have a loss of material in transfer skirt area. If they were to produce a piston for this application using the new 'Dator pin location that would work, the piston would still allow the "short circuiting" or "venting" of the combustion gases when the piston was at TDC, due to the loss of material that is critical in that area. Therefore, new, expensive tooling would also have to be created for this piston also for the application to work correctly.
My contact stated that approx. 2 years ago, Wiseco adopted a "lean manufacturing" policy that effectively reduces or eliminates the need for any further component machining to be done to the part after it's been forged. Therefore, each product design **MUST** now have dedicated tooling (die, punch or both) to achieve this and that's why it's so difficult to get a current tool "to work" without major machining costs to a current forge die or punch.
The Good News~
My contact also stated that he's trying to get one of two other options to go though at Wiseco that will allow him to complete these custom vintage jobs that Wiseco is losing to China and Germany. The first option is for Wiseco to produce "generic" tooling to meet the needs of these small production runs and then the forged blanks could then be machined to the final size for each specific application. This would still keep the costs down pretty good too. The second option would be for them to machine each application of billet aluminum, however, the cost per peice would be higher. Both options have not been approved with Wiseco yet and no one knows when or if they will- especially during the sagging economy.
So, as far as this project goes for both piston types, it's a no-go regarding Wiseco using current tooling to produce the piston you folks' want without having to create new tooling under their "lean manufacturing" policies. If you guys' do want the pistons produced with new tooling, just say the word, commit to the costs described above and they will do it for you. However, one or both secondary options described above may also be available for the future, if they are approved from within Wiseco to move forward.
They are sending me back both of Kenny's sample pistons and cylinders, for which I'll send them back to him promptly. If anyone wants to move forward with new tooling, just let me know and I'll do my part to get the ball rolling for you.
My contact did provide another contact in the custom piston industry we could try that may help us get this project completed. This German company is called Wossner Piston and they are located at this link: http://www.woessner-kolben.de/english/indexenglish.html They provide custom piston designs for all sorts of applications using just the form of "universal" tooling and "machining" that my contact at Wiseco is trying to push through within Wiseco. These guys may be an option also.
Last but not least- I've tried to upload a pdf file from Wiseco of the piston design, but this new board won't let me upload a .pdf file..... I'll just send it to Kenny I guess.
Regards,
PJ
Sorry for the sporadic updates, but as some of you already know, I've been trying to get in touch with my contact at Wiseco that is heading up this endeavor to get an update. However, for some reason unknown to me, I've never gotten any return phone calls or emails for weeks- even after I've tried to contact them 6 times! Needless to say, I began to get worried... Well, I just got off the phone with my contact at Wiseco Special Products Engineering regarding this project and found out some new engineering information for this design and the reason for their delay in returning my phone calls/email attempts.
First off... My contact there had a mild heart attack a while ago at the age of 33!! It seems he was burning the candle at both ends for far too long, drinking 5-6 Rockstar Energy Drinks per day to stay awake and the stresses of work (including his personal life) finally caught up with him. He was out of the office forever while he was in the Hospital. I didn't know that and felt like a jerk after giving him a hard time on the phone today when he finally answered for not ever returning my phone messages.... Here is the email he just sent me before I got a chance to read it, calling him first~
""Hi Phil -
I apologize for the delay in response, I was out of the office a few weeks from a heart attack and struggling to get back up to speed. But to answer your question in regards to the cylinders and piston samples you sent in for review, they are here safe and sound. Engineering had reviewed the cylinders and found an alternative ring pin location that would work on the forging to retain a two ring design for this application. But after further investigation on the transfer skirt area of the forging. They have informed me that the transfer skirt will not fit the existing forging, the transfer opening will vent into the exhaust port as it opens near TDC. I've attached a PDF file of the findings. The JD295s and JD340s projects are both on hold in Engineering. The next step to move forward on either of these project would require the construction of new forging punch. Again, sorry for the delay on my part.""
They had a chance to fully inspect the sample 295s/340s pistons and cylinders that Kenny had graciously lended us to borrow, in order to come up with a piston design that would fit this application. Here is what they have came up with to date.
JD 295/s Piston Kit
As mentioned before earlier in this thread, the 295s pistons were going to require brand new, dedicated tooling to produce a piston that you folks want, however, that intial capital investment costs would be approx. $4047 for the tooling/punch dies, which didn't include any machining process costs required for the finish product, nor rings, pins, or circlips costs either. Here is the text from earlier in this thread that applies the same for today.
The Bad News~
Due to the unique and odd-ball specifications of the 295/s piston design and since there hasn't been a piston type like this produced since the 70's, using JD's standards from wayyyy back then; Wiseco is unable to place this design on any of their existing forge tooling. Out of the seven(7) forgings they had available that was even remotely close, they all fell short in existing design, due to the piston material thickness and pin boss length for the 18mm pin diameter. Addtionally, the transfer skirt and ring indexing pin hump on the interior of the forging was also a key reason the original design was of poor placement.
The Good News~
The pistons can still be produced with new tooling...BUT, the cost is going to be much higher per kit, since this tooling is special for this odd-ball design. This would require the design / construction of a new forge punch that Wiseco can use with their existing dies to reduce overall cost. Due to the unique design parameters of this piston design, Wiseco is offering to engineer a forge punch at their cost of $4,047.00, with the commitment of a 100 unit production run in the foundry. This cost doesn't include the other periphreal parts that would be included in the kit, so I'd guess each piston kit in this format would probably come in at $200+ or more when it was all said and done. Of course, Wiseco would firm up the costs much more accurately if you folks decide to move forward with a commitment/intent to purchase.
JD 340/s Piston Kit
After carefull consideration of the ring indexing pin issue previously described in this thread for the 340s slug, Wiseco did come up with a good solution to the problem after looking at Kenny's sample 340s cylinder, where they could use some of their existing tooling from the 'Dator piston design and re-locate the 340s piston ring indexing pin to the 'Dator location. However, that still left the biggest problem to overcome, the transfer skirt area....
The Bad News~
Their current in-house tooling would produce a forging that would have a loss of material in transfer skirt area. If they were to produce a piston for this application using the new 'Dator pin location that would work, the piston would still allow the "short circuiting" or "venting" of the combustion gases when the piston was at TDC, due to the loss of material that is critical in that area. Therefore, new, expensive tooling would also have to be created for this piston also for the application to work correctly.
My contact stated that approx. 2 years ago, Wiseco adopted a "lean manufacturing" policy that effectively reduces or eliminates the need for any further component machining to be done to the part after it's been forged. Therefore, each product design **MUST** now have dedicated tooling (die, punch or both) to achieve this and that's why it's so difficult to get a current tool "to work" without major machining costs to a current forge die or punch.
The Good News~
My contact also stated that he's trying to get one of two other options to go though at Wiseco that will allow him to complete these custom vintage jobs that Wiseco is losing to China and Germany. The first option is for Wiseco to produce "generic" tooling to meet the needs of these small production runs and then the forged blanks could then be machined to the final size for each specific application. This would still keep the costs down pretty good too. The second option would be for them to machine each application of billet aluminum, however, the cost per peice would be higher. Both options have not been approved with Wiseco yet and no one knows when or if they will- especially during the sagging economy.
So, as far as this project goes for both piston types, it's a no-go regarding Wiseco using current tooling to produce the piston you folks' want without having to create new tooling under their "lean manufacturing" policies. If you guys' do want the pistons produced with new tooling, just say the word, commit to the costs described above and they will do it for you. However, one or both secondary options described above may also be available for the future, if they are approved from within Wiseco to move forward.
They are sending me back both of Kenny's sample pistons and cylinders, for which I'll send them back to him promptly. If anyone wants to move forward with new tooling, just let me know and I'll do my part to get the ball rolling for you.
My contact did provide another contact in the custom piston industry we could try that may help us get this project completed. This German company is called Wossner Piston and they are located at this link: http://www.woessner-kolben.de/english/indexenglish.html They provide custom piston designs for all sorts of applications using just the form of "universal" tooling and "machining" that my contact at Wiseco is trying to push through within Wiseco. These guys may be an option also.
Last but not least- I've tried to upload a pdf file from Wiseco of the piston design, but this new board won't let me upload a .pdf file..... I'll just send it to Kenny I guess.
Regards,
PJ
-
ICCSF 108
- Posts: 4369
- Joined: Sun Jul 17, 2005 12:00 am
- Real Name: Kenny Heins, AKA Grumpy
- Location: Blue Springs Mo.
- Contact:
Re: 295/S & 340/S pistons
PJ, First off thanks for all your help on this project, I knew it wouldn't be easy..
Can you ask your contact if Wiseco still has the tooling ( probably not the right word ) for there old CW-340-S or newer number 2012PS ( both the same piston ) I believe these pistons will work in the 340/S although I'm not sure about ring pin placement or anyother problems with using them. I do know that they don't use a L ring & the top ring is lower on the piston.. but there are guy's out there that claim to be using them in the 340/S motors???
Also I guess I never thought of mentioning this before but if it would be easier for them to find or produce a 295/S piston larger than the std 55.9 mm bore, I'm sure that we could punch the motors out a little larger to accommodate a slightly larger piston. I do know that there isn't enough meat to go out to 60mm thought..
Question, when he was talking about $200.00 + per piston kit is that meaning ea. piston or does " Kit " mean a pair??
Again thanks for your time that your putting in on this..
Kenny
Can you ask your contact if Wiseco still has the tooling ( probably not the right word ) for there old CW-340-S or newer number 2012PS ( both the same piston ) I believe these pistons will work in the 340/S although I'm not sure about ring pin placement or anyother problems with using them. I do know that they don't use a L ring & the top ring is lower on the piston.. but there are guy's out there that claim to be using them in the 340/S motors???
Also I guess I never thought of mentioning this before but if it would be easier for them to find or produce a 295/S piston larger than the std 55.9 mm bore, I'm sure that we could punch the motors out a little larger to accommodate a slightly larger piston. I do know that there isn't enough meat to go out to 60mm thought..
Question, when he was talking about $200.00 + per piston kit is that meaning ea. piston or does " Kit " mean a pair??
Again thanks for your time that your putting in on this..
Kenny
AKA: Kenny, Grumpy, Mr. Richard Head
"I Hunt For it, Purchase it, Haul it, Sometimes Repair it, Sometimes Break it, Then Fix it Again, Label it, Warehouse it, Talk About it, So NOW, HOW Can I Take Any Less $$ For It?"
"God I love the smell of KLOTZ in the morning, That smell, you know that Gasoline/Oil Smell, MAKES the whole place SMELL like.. LIKE VICTORY. You know someday the 2 strokers are gonna end..."
Do Anti-War Protesters have reunions? If so what do they TALK about?
"I Hunt For it, Purchase it, Haul it, Sometimes Repair it, Sometimes Break it, Then Fix it Again, Label it, Warehouse it, Talk About it, So NOW, HOW Can I Take Any Less $$ For It?"
"God I love the smell of KLOTZ in the morning, That smell, you know that Gasoline/Oil Smell, MAKES the whole place SMELL like.. LIKE VICTORY. You know someday the 2 strokers are gonna end..."
Do Anti-War Protesters have reunions? If so what do they TALK about?
-
Cabindweller
- Posts: 561
- Joined: Wed Mar 12, 2008 12:00 am
- Real Name: Jerry Zebro
- Location: Ridgeland WI
Re: 295/S & 340/S pistons
$200.00 Per piston is a little rich for my blood. If that is the case, I could only afford One pair at this time. I Just hope that if $200.00 is indeed the price It don't change so many peoples mind on doing this, that it falls through. Besides that I couldn't commit 100% untill I have a Motor to put them in. Only then will I know what my needs are. Thanks for all the work and the status report.
Jerry
Jerry
Old sleds are hours of entertainment.... then you get to ride them for a little bit.
Re: 295/S & 340/S pistons
Kenny~ICCSF 108 wrote:PJ, First off thanks for all your help on this project, I knew it wouldn't be easy..
Can you ask your contact if Wiseco still has the tooling ( probably not the right word ) for there old CW-340-S or newer number 2012PS ( both the same piston ) I believe these pistons will work in the 340/S although I'm not sure about ring pin placement or anyother problems with using them. I do know that they don't use a L ring & the top ring is lower on the piston.. but there are guy's out there that claim to be using them in the 340/S motors???
Also I guess I never thought of mentioning this before but if it would be easier for them to find or produce a 295/S piston larger than the std 55.9 mm bore, I'm sure that we could punch the motors out a little larger to accommodate a slightly larger piston. I do know that there isn't enough meat to go out to 60mm thought..
Question, when he was talking about $200.00 + per piston kit is that meaning ea. piston or does " Kit " mean a pair??
Again thanks for your time that your putting in on this..
Kenny
I'll give them a call in the morning to ask them your questions and report back what they say. If they do have the original tooling for the old CW-340-S engine and can produce a production run from that, than I'd say you guys' might have a solution. However, if that is done and the pistons don't fit for what-ever reason due to differences in the cylinder port locations or other critical parameters, than someone will still have to cover the costs of that run with Wiseco to get them paid up. I don't want to get "caught in the middle" if something goes wrong given that decision to move forward trying to "fit" a former piston design into the 340/s engine, if you know what I mean...
As far as the 295/s goes~ It doesn't make any difference in tooling design/creation "difficulty" by going oversize, since thier is no current 295/s tooling in existance at Wiseco at the moment and the cost to produce an O.E.M. size would be the same as if an oversize die and punch was created.
Lastly, the the costs of the piston kits with new tooling would most likely be $200+ per piston (with pin, circlips and rings) rather than as a pair. I.E. $400+ for a piston kit "pair". Of course, this cost would go down significantly the more pieces over 100 in a production run one goes.
pj
Re: 295/S & 340/S pistons
By the way Kenny and DA~ I just emailed you the Wiseco engineering and spec documents they sent me for the 340/s piston design for your future reference if needed. They authorized it to be posted publically if needed, so no worries there.
pj
pj
Re: 295/S & 340/S pistons
hi, I would be interested in at least one set of oversize pistons for the 340/s. Maybe two sets.