My number was 173...happen to have any pics?
Stick
295/S & 340/S pistons
Re: 295/S & 340/S pistons
Hi crew.
I know you are all working hard on this project, but i have a question about another angle. Would it be possible to have a run of CNC billet aluminum pistons made, or would that be too expencive as well? I know some designing would need to be done first, but it would not be nessesary to have an expencive new die made. I don't know much about the science of these pistons. Would a billet material even work? the neat part of this would be that more pistons could be run at any point. this is just a thought. i think all the work you guys are doing on this is great.
Go ahead and bash away at my silly ideas.
DE
I know you are all working hard on this project, but i have a question about another angle. Would it be possible to have a run of CNC billet aluminum pistons made, or would that be too expencive as well? I know some designing would need to be done first, but it would not be nessesary to have an expencive new die made. I don't know much about the science of these pistons. Would a billet material even work? the neat part of this would be that more pistons could be run at any point. this is just a thought. i think all the work you guys are doing on this is great.
Go ahead and bash away at my silly ideas.
DE
Dustin Elder
Salem, OH
Midmounts.... Lots and lots of midmounts...
"Everyone is entitled to be stupid, but some abuse the privilege."
Salem, OH
Midmounts.... Lots and lots of midmounts...
"Everyone is entitled to be stupid, but some abuse the privilege."
-
ICCSF 108
- Posts: 4369
- Joined: Sun Jul 17, 2005 12:00 am
- Real Name: Kenny Heins, AKA Grumpy
- Location: Blue Springs Mo.
- Contact:
Re: 295/S & 340/S pistons
FYI a piece of 7075 Aircraft grade of aluminum ( 7075 T651 Aluminum Round Bar 3" Dia x 24"-Long enough for maybe 8 pistons = $146.19 on ebay, including shipping.) Not sure though if 7075 T651 grade would be the right stuff..
Jon ( I believe ) had made the comment early on that he could make them??
Kenny
Jon ( I believe ) had made the comment early on that he could make them??
Kenny
AKA: Kenny, Grumpy, Mr. Richard Head
"I Hunt For it, Purchase it, Haul it, Sometimes Repair it, Sometimes Break it, Then Fix it Again, Label it, Warehouse it, Talk About it, So NOW, HOW Can I Take Any Less $$ For It?"
"God I love the smell of KLOTZ in the morning, That smell, you know that Gasoline/Oil Smell, MAKES the whole place SMELL like.. LIKE VICTORY. You know someday the 2 strokers are gonna end..."
Do Anti-War Protesters have reunions? If so what do they TALK about?
"I Hunt For it, Purchase it, Haul it, Sometimes Repair it, Sometimes Break it, Then Fix it Again, Label it, Warehouse it, Talk About it, So NOW, HOW Can I Take Any Less $$ For It?"
"God I love the smell of KLOTZ in the morning, That smell, you know that Gasoline/Oil Smell, MAKES the whole place SMELL like.. LIKE VICTORY. You know someday the 2 strokers are gonna end..."
Do Anti-War Protesters have reunions? If so what do they TALK about?
-
WinnipegStPaul9
- Posts: 5577
- Joined: Sat Jul 23, 2005 12:00 am
- Real Name: Don Amber
- Location: Churubusco, IN
Re: 295/S & 340/S pistons
I'll look.Stick wrote:My number was 173...happen to have any pics?
Stick
DA
Feel free to check out our website www.buscobullet.com for restorations or parts.
Re: 295/S & 340/S pistons
If you're going to try to have pistons machined from billet material, you'll most likely want SAE-4032 or for the really "good stuff", SAE-2618 aluminum alloy. We used the SAE-4032 pistons/material in the non-power adder street engines we've built, because we could run a little tighter piston-to-cylinder wall clearance to keep them quiet when cold and the SAE-2618 piston/material for most forced induction or nitrous boosted engines where piston crown heat would be really high with the added power they would be subjected to. The only drawback to 2618, was that they "rattled" a bit more when cold, due to the extra piston-to-cylinder wall clearance needed to keep the skirts off the cyl. walls when they got really hot.
The only stumbling block I see here with either of these alloys is how they will be made. In other words, when the piston manufacturers design a piston with either alloy, they do it with a forging that allows for a very dense, highly durable, heat treated and dimensionally stable part that resists a lot of thermal expansion due to the forging process. I don't think that one cold hold hot/cold dimensional specs. with a piston that wasn't heat treated or that was just simply cut from a less dense billet material alone. I degress to the piston manufacturers' expertise on this one however..
I don't know for certain, but from what I remember of basic metallurgy in College Engineering classes, an unforged copy of a piston cut from either 4032 or 2618 material would expand uncontrollably and in excess, where it would be nearly impossible to keep the piston alive for very long.. In other words, it would have to have soooo much piston-to-cylinder wall clearance when cold to make up for it's massive expansion, the pistons would rattle around in the bores until they got warm, the rings wouldn't seal very well during this time and the pistons skirts would take a real beating that would eventually crack or collapse them altogether in a short time. That's why most high performance pistons are either cast or forged these days, since the manufacturers can control expansion properly to make the pistons live.
Just something to think about and to take into serious consideration/investigation before someone does this, as it would be really "bad" to tear up a bunch of vintage, nearly non-existant 295s / 340s cylinders while "testing".
Then again, I'm not really sure; but I did stay at a Holiday Inn Exress last night...
PJ
The only stumbling block I see here with either of these alloys is how they will be made. In other words, when the piston manufacturers design a piston with either alloy, they do it with a forging that allows for a very dense, highly durable, heat treated and dimensionally stable part that resists a lot of thermal expansion due to the forging process. I don't think that one cold hold hot/cold dimensional specs. with a piston that wasn't heat treated or that was just simply cut from a less dense billet material alone. I degress to the piston manufacturers' expertise on this one however..
I don't know for certain, but from what I remember of basic metallurgy in College Engineering classes, an unforged copy of a piston cut from either 4032 or 2618 material would expand uncontrollably and in excess, where it would be nearly impossible to keep the piston alive for very long.. In other words, it would have to have soooo much piston-to-cylinder wall clearance when cold to make up for it's massive expansion, the pistons would rattle around in the bores until they got warm, the rings wouldn't seal very well during this time and the pistons skirts would take a real beating that would eventually crack or collapse them altogether in a short time. That's why most high performance pistons are either cast or forged these days, since the manufacturers can control expansion properly to make the pistons live.
Just something to think about and to take into serious consideration/investigation before someone does this, as it would be really "bad" to tear up a bunch of vintage, nearly non-existant 295s / 340s cylinders while "testing".
Then again, I'm not really sure; but I did stay at a Holiday Inn Exress last night...
PJ
Re: 295/S & 340/S pistons
Talk about catastrophic failure! I igured there was a reason. just didn't know what it was. PJ, what are the possibilities of a cast aluminum piston?
DE
DE
Dustin Elder
Salem, OH
Midmounts.... Lots and lots of midmounts...
"Everyone is entitled to be stupid, but some abuse the privilege."
Salem, OH
Midmounts.... Lots and lots of midmounts...
"Everyone is entitled to be stupid, but some abuse the privilege."
Re: 295/S & 340/S pistons
Beats me... 
-
Cabindweller
- Posts: 561
- Joined: Wed Mar 12, 2008 12:00 am
- Real Name: Jerry Zebro
- Location: Ridgeland WI
Re: 295/S & 340/S pistons
I am going to kick the tires on this idea again. Would it be possable for wiseco to make us a usable 295/s piston with the tooling they have on hand, say if they made them with the 16mm pins and the some other changes in design? I for one am getting desperate for pistions.
Jerry
Jerry
pj sportfire wrote:Update: 3/10/09
I spoke to Wiseco Engineering today and received some good news and some bad news....
JD 295/s Piston Kit
Bad News~
Due to the unique and odd-ball specifications of the 295/s piston design and since there hasn't been a piston type like this produced since the 70's, using JD's standards from wayyyy back then; Wiseco is unable to place this design on any of their existing forge tooling. Out of the seven(7) forgings they had available that was even remotely close, they all fell short in existing design, due to the piston material thickness and pin boss length for the 18mm pin diameter. Addtionally, the transfer skirt and ring indexing pin hump on the interior of the forging was also a key reason the original design was of poor placement.
Good News~
The pistons can still be produced with new tooling...BUT, the cost is going to be much higher per kit, since this tooling is special for this odd-ball design. This would require the design / construction of a new forge punch that Wiseco can use with their existing dies to reduce overall cost, as compared to having to add the punch dies also. Due to the unique design parameters of this piston design, Wiseco is offering to engineer a forge punch at their cost of $4,047.00, with the commitment of a 100 unit production run in the foundry. This cost doesn't include the other periphreal parts that would be included in the kit, so I'd guess each piston kit in this format would probably come in under $200 when it was all said and done. Of course, Wiseco would firm up the costs much more accurately if you folks decide to move forward.
JD 340/s Piston Kit
Bad News~
Another issue with the wierd piston designs from JD... This design can **possibly** be placed on their existing forge tooling pending the boards input. The part would not meet the OEM design parameters due to the ring index pinning and transfer skirt area changes from stock. Their current tooling would produce a forging that would have a loss of material in transfer skirt area and the lower ring indexing pin would break through the interior of the forging. It's critical to have 85% capture of the ring indexing pin for ring support in this area; therefore, their current tooling could only produce a single ring piston to fit this application, unless new, expensive tooling was created for this piston also....
Good News~
What they could offer to do as a second option is build a "Pro-Lite" piston version that would be of a single ring design, once they verify its compatibility to the transfer ports of the actual cylinder. If you guys can supply a standard 340/s cylinder for them to look at and approve a single ring piston design, they may be able to make all of this work very well with their current, existing tooling; which would not only speed up the completion process, but also be *MUCH* cheaper per piston kit. They would need a cylinder to double-check a few specs before they would be able to approve the new design from a manufacturing QC standpoint.
There you go...right from the preverbial horses mouth. Feel free to discuss and I'll relay to Wiseco whatever decision you guys' come up with in verbatim. They have put the project on hold until you folks' can decide for sure which way you want to go for both piston designs.
Cheers!
PJ
Old sleds are hours of entertainment.... then you get to ride them for a little bit.
-
ICCSF 108
- Posts: 4369
- Joined: Sun Jul 17, 2005 12:00 am
- Real Name: Kenny Heins, AKA Grumpy
- Location: Blue Springs Mo.
- Contact:
Re: 295/S & 340/S pistons
Someone on the site was going to try the Yamaha 300 Pistons out on a 295/S to see if they would work, does anyone remember where his post is regarding him being the Gineia Pig or who the person was??
Kenny
Kenny
AKA: Kenny, Grumpy, Mr. Richard Head
"I Hunt For it, Purchase it, Haul it, Sometimes Repair it, Sometimes Break it, Then Fix it Again, Label it, Warehouse it, Talk About it, So NOW, HOW Can I Take Any Less $$ For It?"
"God I love the smell of KLOTZ in the morning, That smell, you know that Gasoline/Oil Smell, MAKES the whole place SMELL like.. LIKE VICTORY. You know someday the 2 strokers are gonna end..."
Do Anti-War Protesters have reunions? If so what do they TALK about?
"I Hunt For it, Purchase it, Haul it, Sometimes Repair it, Sometimes Break it, Then Fix it Again, Label it, Warehouse it, Talk About it, So NOW, HOW Can I Take Any Less $$ For It?"
"God I love the smell of KLOTZ in the morning, That smell, you know that Gasoline/Oil Smell, MAKES the whole place SMELL like.. LIKE VICTORY. You know someday the 2 strokers are gonna end..."
Do Anti-War Protesters have reunions? If so what do they TALK about?
-
Cabindweller
- Posts: 561
- Joined: Wed Mar 12, 2008 12:00 am
- Real Name: Jerry Zebro
- Location: Ridgeland WI
Re: 295/S & 340/S pistons
Kenny,
Yea that gineia pig was me. I bought a pair of used pistons for the yamaha 300 Enticer off ebay cheep enough. They turned out to be wisecos .20 over. I don't want to bore over if I dont have to. They look close in the skirting cut out and pin hight. Then I bought a new SPI standard piston for the Yamaha. The skirt cuts where quite different, too much cut out. This all puzzles me. Two different brand pistons for the same motor are not quite the same. I talked with the guy I am going to have put my motor together about this whole delema, and he told me that he has even resorted to putting dirt bike pistons in snowmobiles, in situations like this. That led me on a new hunt. it turns out that most of the 125cc dirt bikes use about a 56mm bore piston. It allso makes me wonder if there is a outboard motor piston out there that would be in the ball bark as a 295/s replacement. As I find the time I am going to check into some dirt bike pistons. From what I have gathered so far an older 125cc Yamaha might be close. Type 56mm piston into a Dennis Kirks search and there are pages of results. I have a buddy who works at a Yamaha dealer so some Saturday I plan to go in there with the one 295/s piston I have and see what I can find for a match. The trouble with the Yamaha 300 piston is that they are not all that easy to find either at least made by Wiseco. I just would like to think that some one, be it Weseco or another company could make us a usable afordable pistons with some modifications to the design. I was looking for other companies and BRC perfomance came up in a search. Anyone know any thing about the place? PJR mentioned other possable manufacures at one point. I am to the point with this that I would be willing to throw more $$$ in the hat to get some pistons made.
Jerry
Yea that gineia pig was me. I bought a pair of used pistons for the yamaha 300 Enticer off ebay cheep enough. They turned out to be wisecos .20 over. I don't want to bore over if I dont have to. They look close in the skirting cut out and pin hight. Then I bought a new SPI standard piston for the Yamaha. The skirt cuts where quite different, too much cut out. This all puzzles me. Two different brand pistons for the same motor are not quite the same. I talked with the guy I am going to have put my motor together about this whole delema, and he told me that he has even resorted to putting dirt bike pistons in snowmobiles, in situations like this. That led me on a new hunt. it turns out that most of the 125cc dirt bikes use about a 56mm bore piston. It allso makes me wonder if there is a outboard motor piston out there that would be in the ball bark as a 295/s replacement. As I find the time I am going to check into some dirt bike pistons. From what I have gathered so far an older 125cc Yamaha might be close. Type 56mm piston into a Dennis Kirks search and there are pages of results. I have a buddy who works at a Yamaha dealer so some Saturday I plan to go in there with the one 295/s piston I have and see what I can find for a match. The trouble with the Yamaha 300 piston is that they are not all that easy to find either at least made by Wiseco. I just would like to think that some one, be it Weseco or another company could make us a usable afordable pistons with some modifications to the design. I was looking for other companies and BRC perfomance came up in a search. Anyone know any thing about the place? PJR mentioned other possable manufacures at one point. I am to the point with this that I would be willing to throw more $$$ in the hat to get some pistons made.
Jerry
Old sleds are hours of entertainment.... then you get to ride them for a little bit.
Re: 295/S & 340/S pistons
ive got some nos .010 overs for the yami 300's kenny may have some insight as to wether they will work or not ,any thoughts kenny ??
certificate recipiant of the 12 vintage challenge !! on a 78 liquifre 440,
certificate recipiant of the 13 vintage challenge !! on a 340/s
certificate recipient of the 14 vintage challenge !! on a 78 liquifire 440
joe forgot the certificates for the 2015 vintage challenge
crossed the start/finish line twice at the 2013 and 2014 I500 on a 78 liquifire 440
certificate recipiant of the 13 vintage challenge !! on a 340/s
certificate recipient of the 14 vintage challenge !! on a 78 liquifire 440
joe forgot the certificates for the 2015 vintage challenge
crossed the start/finish line twice at the 2013 and 2014 I500 on a 78 liquifire 440
-
ICCSF 108
- Posts: 4369
- Joined: Sun Jul 17, 2005 12:00 am
- Real Name: Kenny Heins, AKA Grumpy
- Location: Blue Springs Mo.
- Contact:
Re: 295/S & 340/S pistons
Jerry, email me direct, I will give you the Yamaha part numbers on the correct std. bore pistons, maybe you then can find out for me the correct rings for the part number piston I have. Problem with Yamaha the damn rings don't come with the pistons.
Did you ever get the Jlo wrist pin bearings that will work for the Yamaha piston pin onto the Deere 295/S crank.
ump45-nt@swbell.net
Kenny
cell 612-325-8527
Home 816-229-8765
Did you ever get the Jlo wrist pin bearings that will work for the Yamaha piston pin onto the Deere 295/S crank.
ump45-nt@swbell.net
Kenny
cell 612-325-8527
Home 816-229-8765
AKA: Kenny, Grumpy, Mr. Richard Head
"I Hunt For it, Purchase it, Haul it, Sometimes Repair it, Sometimes Break it, Then Fix it Again, Label it, Warehouse it, Talk About it, So NOW, HOW Can I Take Any Less $$ For It?"
"God I love the smell of KLOTZ in the morning, That smell, you know that Gasoline/Oil Smell, MAKES the whole place SMELL like.. LIKE VICTORY. You know someday the 2 strokers are gonna end..."
Do Anti-War Protesters have reunions? If so what do they TALK about?
"I Hunt For it, Purchase it, Haul it, Sometimes Repair it, Sometimes Break it, Then Fix it Again, Label it, Warehouse it, Talk About it, So NOW, HOW Can I Take Any Less $$ For It?"
"God I love the smell of KLOTZ in the morning, That smell, you know that Gasoline/Oil Smell, MAKES the whole place SMELL like.. LIKE VICTORY. You know someday the 2 strokers are gonna end..."
Do Anti-War Protesters have reunions? If so what do they TALK about?