Liquifire: 80-81 VS. 82-84?

[Norton]

I am posting the below from information I got last year, when I was researching Second Gen Liquifires ignitions. Hope it clears up a few things about the "A" Liquifire which was like an after Christmas build in 1981, like what todays manfactures do, to test new product in a public setting, for the next season.
keith


The Liquifires produced for the 1981 model year were between Sr. # 155001 - 190000. Some of these units that remained at Horicon were updated while still at the factory, with the 1 3/8" wide belted TR800 primary & secondary drive system and also all the components to convert the engines to the High Speed Retard Ignition (HSRI). These units had an "A" stamped after the production date to identify them.

There was a update program that provided the TR800 clutching system to all new inventory and used trade in inventory of 1980 & 1981 Liquifires remaining in dealer stock the summer of 1981 but there was never a kit for the HSR Ignition. An update to customers was also offered for the TR800 clutching system at reduced cost.

The 1982 Liquifires starting at Sr. #190001 - , as well as 1983 & 1984 models, were all built with the TR800 & HSR Ignition. This made ordering parts for the 1981 "A" Liquifires easy...once you realized what you had.

If you locate a 1981 Liquifire "A"...you have a great find. Only 107 of them made!

[AirborneX4Special]

"A" models would have been like pre - production 82's, correct? Typically Deere would have been assembling lawn tractors by that time of year. I have never seen a build date on any JD snowmobile later than October, not that I have paid strict attention to build dates. The clutching update program must have been devised because the 102C was not heavy enough for the Liquifire. The sled mechanic at my local dealer told me the TR - 800 setup was created for that reason, so evidently Deere was retrofitting at a reduced cost. Very interesting stuff, thanks!

[gixxer6]

I heard that Deere made the flywheel heavier to compensate for the lighter (than an Invader) clutch. Is this true? If so, did Deere lighten the flywheel when they switched to the TR-800?

[AirborneX4Special]

I wouldn't know about any flywheel mods to accomodate the 102C. The 102 was simply not durable enough to handle the horsepower of an LF for very long. Consequently, Deere ( in cooperation with Comet ? ) developed the TR - 800 to enhance the performance of the Liquifire. Is it true the 108 series Comet clutches are closely related to the TR?

[S_Kyle]

As far as I have read. The TR 800 is an improvement of the artic hex clutch, and Ski even mentioned the TR 800 as a predecessor to there new TRA clutch.

[AirborneX4Special]

The TR is the smoothest engagement clutch I've ever encountered. The first time I ever ran one I thought something was wrong with the secondary. The EXP does very well, but I guess it should given they're sort of related.

[gixxer6]

Ok, I have a couple more questions. I read that the Liquifire has a rev limiter? Is this built in to the cdi? Seperate unit?

Why do they call it HSRI High Speed Retard Ignition? Shouldn't the ignition advance at higher RPM?

[Norton]

Liquifire ignition parts update:

I have not located an 80's Indy 400 ignition system to physically compare with the 82 thru 84 Liquifire but did find a post in FAQ what the ohm readings for the 83 Liquifire Pulser and Exciter coils are. The readings turned out to be the same as the 84 thru 89 Indy 400 as according to Polaris books. Love to find 400 Indy parts close by so I can test it on the remaining snow we have this spring.

So AirbornX4Special can you share a copy of this November 81 timing curve graph? It might be useful for this potential parts swap.

The rev limiter is a separate box near the fuel pump or next to the speedometer on the later models.

I think (there are wiser posters than I on this site) the HSRI is meant to have a more advanced timing curve through the entire rpm range, except at high speed which would save the motor. These sleds had the reputation for being sluggish in the low to mid range. Several good posts on that subject on this site!

keith

[AirborneX4Special]

Guys
The ignition curves are a lot different. The early setup shows a gradual climb to roughly 5500 rpm where it is flat thereafter. The HSRI, or Kokusan as Deere calls it, has a similar maintenance rpm setting followed by a dramatic rise to a peak at 3500, followed by a roughly 45 degree angle steady decline starting at 4000 rpm. Deere also changed the oil pump WOT ratio from 20:1 to 24:1 on the TC440A - E202 engine. The electrical changes were meant to improve starting, idle, and acceleration while the oil pump recalibration decreased consumption and spark plug fouling. There is a section in this product update outlining the different parts in the new ignition. The flywheel with ring gear, coils, combo trigger unit, and the lack of inertia disc are highlighted. The parts are not interchangeable with the original system, including the magnets.
I'll try to get this posted so you can see it. The graph is small but you can get an idea of what's going on.

The speed limiter is different on 81 - 84 models, sn 155001 and up.

Pat

[gixxer6]

That would be great if you could post that. Thank you.

I have been assuming that the 80-81 Liquifire ignition was the same as the Invaders, but I don't think my Invader has a rev limiter. Are they the same?

Could someone post a picture of the 82-84 ignition/engine? I am heading to the local snowmobile junk yard and I need to know what I am looking for. Thanks.

[AirborneX4Special]

I don't know if the Liquifires and Invaders used the same ignition parts. Something must have been different on the dual spark plug setup because Deere never had that.

The newer ignition is easy to spot. It is a rectangular plastic box mounted exactly where the cylinder shaped coil is mounted on early models. The spark plug wires are attached to the front of the box and are routed to the heads accordingly. There is no separate cdi module.

[gixxer6]

My Invader doesn't have dual sparkplug heads. That was only on the 80' 4/6 Invader LTD. And it used a different ignition than the standard Invader.

Thanks for the info. Now I know what I am looking for.

[AirborneX4Special]

Ok. I never quite understood the different Invaders. The LTD was a different model but I presumed it was just baubles and trim type stuff and not engine, but I just did not pay enough attention. It would seem logical that ordinary Invaders shared ignition setups with the LF throughout production since Kawasaki built the engines. I can't help but think Kawasaki would keep their cutting edge stuff in their own sleds and allow Deere to run the more proven technology. We have to bear in mind that Kaw was gone after 82 models and Deere was looking for a buyer at the same time.

[gixxer6]

The 4/6 had more ports in the cylinders, dual plug heads, twin pipes (along with a bigger radiator and a few other trim things). It is my understanding that the ignition system wasn't as good as the standard Invader. I heard that the system was closer to the old technology used on the dual plug Arctic Cat kawasaki engines. This is why most folks run shaved standard Invader single plug heads when modifying them.

I was questioning whether or not they shared the same ignition parts because of the difference in the head design. I thought maybe the timing might be different to compliment the differences in head design?

[AirborneX4Special]

Entirely possible. Did the Invader use different carbs?