I see that both the fan cooled Cyclone engines & the older Liquifire engines had a Factory spec of 0.096 or 20 Deg. BTDC for the timing, has anyone played around with this to get the engines to respond better?? Or am I going to have to wing it on this??
I see that the old 400/21 & 440/21 Points engines were set at 0.006 & 0.010 BTDC respectively.. & The Kioritz 440/22A engines with points were set at 0.024 or 10 Deg. BTDC?? What was the reason for the jump in timing between the /21 & /22A engines??
Or was this just because of the difference between the CCW & Kioritz engineering?
Kenny
Timing on the Kioritz Fan/Liquid cooled engines
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ICCSF 108
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Timing on the Kioritz Fan/Liquid cooled engines
AKA: Kenny, Grumpy, Mr. Richard Head
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"I Hunt For it, Purchase it, Haul it, Sometimes Repair it, Sometimes Break it, Then Fix it Again, Label it, Warehouse it, Talk About it, So NOW, HOW Can I Take Any Less $$ For It?"
"God I love the smell of KLOTZ in the morning, That smell, you know that Gasoline/Oil Smell, MAKES the whole place SMELL like.. LIKE VICTORY. You know someday the 2 strokers are gonna end..."
Do Anti-War Protesters have reunions? If so what do they TALK about?
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ICCSF 108
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Re: Timing on the Kioritz Fan/Liquid cooled engines
WOW No response? Why do I always get myself into these quagmires first?? 
Doesn't anyone else push the envelope??
Kenny
Doesn't anyone else push the envelope??
Kenny
AKA: Kenny, Grumpy, Mr. Richard Head
"I Hunt For it, Purchase it, Haul it, Sometimes Repair it, Sometimes Break it, Then Fix it Again, Label it, Warehouse it, Talk About it, So NOW, HOW Can I Take Any Less $$ For It?"
"God I love the smell of KLOTZ in the morning, That smell, you know that Gasoline/Oil Smell, MAKES the whole place SMELL like.. LIKE VICTORY. You know someday the 2 strokers are gonna end..."
Do Anti-War Protesters have reunions? If so what do they TALK about?
"I Hunt For it, Purchase it, Haul it, Sometimes Repair it, Sometimes Break it, Then Fix it Again, Label it, Warehouse it, Talk About it, So NOW, HOW Can I Take Any Less $$ For It?"
"God I love the smell of KLOTZ in the morning, That smell, you know that Gasoline/Oil Smell, MAKES the whole place SMELL like.. LIKE VICTORY. You know someday the 2 strokers are gonna end..."
Do Anti-War Protesters have reunions? If so what do they TALK about?
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harleysportster
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Re: Timing on the Kioritz Fan/Liquid cooled engines
Kenny,ICCSF 108 wrote:I see that both the fan cooled Cyclone engines & the older Liquifire engines had a Factory spec of 0.096 or 20 Deg. BTDC for the timing, has anyone played around with this to get the engines to respond better?? Or am I going to have to wing it on this??
I see that the old 400/21 & 440/21 Points engines were set at 0.006 & 0.010 BTDC respectively.. & The Kioritz 440/22A engines with points were set at 0.024 or 10 Deg. BTDC?? What was the reason for the jump in timing between the /21 & /22A engines??
Or was this just because of the difference between the CCW & Kioritz engineering?
Kenny
I don't have the full scoop but the /22 engines wiith points had a different head than the /22 with CDI. I believe the compression ratio was also different.
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WinnipegStPaul9
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Re: Timing on the Kioritz Fan/Liquid cooled engines
I do, I do, I do....actually most of the envelopes I receive have bills inside so I "push them into the shredder". Does that count??ICCSF 108 wrote:Doesn't anyone else push the envelope??
Kenny
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Feel free to check out our website www.buscobullet.com for restorations or parts.
Re: Timing on the Kioritz Fan/Liquid cooled engines
ive always thought that the liquifire motors could stand more timing than the cyclones because of their less conservative porting . the cyclones seem to have more static compression or cylinder pressure than the l/fs however there dynamic cylinder pressure may actually be more , in any event id think the factory spec is conservative to make sleds easier to start wade
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crossed the start/finish line twice at the 2013 and 2014 I500 on a 78 liquifire 440
certificate recipiant of the 13 vintage challenge !! on a 340/s
certificate recipient of the 14 vintage challenge !! on a 78 liquifire 440
joe forgot the certificates for the 2015 vintage challenge
crossed the start/finish line twice at the 2013 and 2014 I500 on a 78 liquifire 440
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ICCSF 108
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Re: Timing on the Kioritz Fan/Liquid cooled engines
Wade, that was one thing I was wondering about, ( if it would start harder if I advance it a bit?? )
Kenny
Kenny
AKA: Kenny, Grumpy, Mr. Richard Head
"I Hunt For it, Purchase it, Haul it, Sometimes Repair it, Sometimes Break it, Then Fix it Again, Label it, Warehouse it, Talk About it, So NOW, HOW Can I Take Any Less $$ For It?"
"God I love the smell of KLOTZ in the morning, That smell, you know that Gasoline/Oil Smell, MAKES the whole place SMELL like.. LIKE VICTORY. You know someday the 2 strokers are gonna end..."
Do Anti-War Protesters have reunions? If so what do they TALK about?
"I Hunt For it, Purchase it, Haul it, Sometimes Repair it, Sometimes Break it, Then Fix it Again, Label it, Warehouse it, Talk About it, So NOW, HOW Can I Take Any Less $$ For It?"
"God I love the smell of KLOTZ in the morning, That smell, you know that Gasoline/Oil Smell, MAKES the whole place SMELL like.. LIKE VICTORY. You know someday the 2 strokers are gonna end..."
Do Anti-War Protesters have reunions? If so what do they TALK about?
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HoosierDeereMan
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Re: Timing on the Kioritz Fan/Liquid cooled engines
Kenny,
I've done some reading on adjusting timing on 2 stroke engines. Boy, did I get an education! I thought that advancing the timing would "wake it up" so to speak. In fact it will slow the engine RPM down on top end and create additional heat in the cylinders because you are firing the gas air mixture farther and farther away (ahead) of TDC. Ironicly, retarding the timing will actually gain RPM as you are now firing the cylinder closer to TDC and there is less resistance to the rotating mass of the crankshaft so you gain RPM. You can get the timing advanced enough that you will hear pinging which results in burning a piston from pre-detonation. Too much advance will also result in loss of power. By firing the gas charge earlier not only is the piston meeting more resistance but it gives it more time to force the now fired charge down around the piston and rings. So you actually loose hp on the power stroke. Not what I expected at all. There are tradeoffs of low end torque vs. top end with any timing adjustment. I'm sure the Kioritz timing spec is a balance of where you can get both. I've never tried playing with the timing. I always check it with a timing light and set it as close to book specs as I can. I'm sure there are some mild gains to be made from ignition timing. From what I've read the expansion chamber plays more of a role in performance than anything.
I'll let you be the guienea pig Kenny.
Let us know how it turns out.
Troy
I've done some reading on adjusting timing on 2 stroke engines. Boy, did I get an education! I thought that advancing the timing would "wake it up" so to speak. In fact it will slow the engine RPM down on top end and create additional heat in the cylinders because you are firing the gas air mixture farther and farther away (ahead) of TDC. Ironicly, retarding the timing will actually gain RPM as you are now firing the cylinder closer to TDC and there is less resistance to the rotating mass of the crankshaft so you gain RPM. You can get the timing advanced enough that you will hear pinging which results in burning a piston from pre-detonation. Too much advance will also result in loss of power. By firing the gas charge earlier not only is the piston meeting more resistance but it gives it more time to force the now fired charge down around the piston and rings. So you actually loose hp on the power stroke. Not what I expected at all. There are tradeoffs of low end torque vs. top end with any timing adjustment. I'm sure the Kioritz timing spec is a balance of where you can get both. I've never tried playing with the timing. I always check it with a timing light and set it as close to book specs as I can. I'm sure there are some mild gains to be made from ignition timing. From what I've read the expansion chamber plays more of a role in performance than anything.
I'll let you be the guienea pig Kenny.
Let us know how it turns out. Troy
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'73 400, (2)500's, 600
'74 295/S (restored) 2010 HOF poker run survivor.
'75 800, JDX8,
'75 340/S 2011 & 2012 Vintage Challenge finisher.
'76 (2)400's
'78 Liquifire 340,440
'79 Spitfire
"If it has Tits, Tires, or Tracks it's gonna cost you money!"
Re: Timing on the Kioritz Fan/Liquid cooled engines
When you say expansion chambers do you mean like Dator pipes on a 78 Cross Country??
Kenny
Kenny
Do War Protesters have reunions? IF So, What do they talk about??
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HoosierDeereMan
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Re: Timing on the Kioritz Fan/Liquid cooled engines
Yes, the Dator pipes would be a prime example. From what I've read the expansion chamber and silencer are tuned to the engine. The expansion chamber is deigned and tuned based on engine bore, exhaust port timing, ignition timing, etc. The diameter and length of each section of the pipe is designed to handle the exhaust wave and pressure the engine expels to create the perfect back pressure for the engine to offer optimum power across the power band. The small stinger pipe at the end is adjusted by diameter and length for tuning for either low to mid range power or top end based on the intended use of the engine. One thing that really caught me by surprise is that overboring and porting and polishing can render a tuned pipe useless because these things change the dimesnions of the engine that the pipe was originally designed for. Getting the pressures wrong can result in burning the pistons because the pipe may create too much back pressure and force the heat back into the cylinder or the opposite where the engine will not run right due to lack of back pressure.
Troy
Troy
'72 400
'73 400, (2)500's, 600
'74 295/S (restored) 2010 HOF poker run survivor.
'75 800, JDX8,
'75 340/S 2011 & 2012 Vintage Challenge finisher.
'76 (2)400's
'78 Liquifire 340,440
'79 Spitfire
"If it has Tits, Tires, or Tracks it's gonna cost you money!"
'73 400, (2)500's, 600
'74 295/S (restored) 2010 HOF poker run survivor.
'75 800, JDX8,
'75 340/S 2011 & 2012 Vintage Challenge finisher.
'76 (2)400's
'78 Liquifire 340,440
'79 Spitfire
"If it has Tits, Tires, or Tracks it's gonna cost you money!"
Re: Timing on the Kioritz Fan/Liquid cooled engines
Troy it sounds like a set of EGT gauges would be a most for experimenting.
Todd Schrupp
Milbank SD
Milbank SD