Strong spark,135 psi compression,Clean carb, fuel pump appears to be drawing fuel. No start??? Put gas in cylinder still nothing. So I read the FAQ's and started testing wires according to the Hewtech chart and this is what I got.
These readings were all taken with ground on engine case. Blue wire-70.9 ohms (76 ohms is spec) Yellow 2.58 ohms (2700 ohms spec?) Green OL(open) Red OL White OL. According to test procedure info it looks like yellow is the low speed winding? Blue is high speed? They also talk about trigger coils that should be 30 to 197 ohms (referenced to common wire (what/where is this?). Are trigger coils and low/high speed windings the same thing? The yellow seems like the faulty wire...correct?
I also tested the ignition coils according to what "harleysportster" posted and they tested at 222-226 ohms respectively (100-300 acceptable). Also checked primary terminals on coils to ground. They checked at .40 to .20 ohms (.10-.50 acceptable). Is there anything else I should rule out?
Can reed valves stick shut? I haven't dug into the motor yet. Wanted to do as many checks and try to get it running before I start replacing stuff. Sorry for the lengthy explanation but I wanted to be as thorough as possible so hopefully someone can make an accurate diagnosis. The snow is piling up here and the only thing I'm riding is my damn Cub snowblower!!#$%%^^&** I need to stretch the legs on this Cyclone!!
340 Cyclone Won't Start
Re: 340 Cyclone Won't Start
the trigger coil has the same duties as points there is one wire per cylinder and triggers cdi to fire along with a common wire it is located behind the stator
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certificate recipiant of the 13 vintage challenge !! on a 340/s
certificate recipient of the 14 vintage challenge !! on a 78 liquifire 440
joe forgot the certificates for the 2015 vintage challenge
crossed the start/finish line twice at the 2013 and 2014 I500 on a 78 liquifire 440
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harleysportster
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Re: 340 Cyclone Won't Start
Ski,
I know it can get confusing but I'll try and clear up a few questions on testing. All measurements have a 10% tollerance
Stator
Yellow to ground=2.7K ohms
Blue to ground=76 ohms
Trigger Coils
Red to Green=30 ohms
White to Green=30 ohms
Lighting Coil
Green/Yellow wire to each other= 0.2 ohms
Your ignition coils seem good
Your low speed and high speed windings appear normal. Recheck the trigger coils. The common ground of the trigger coils is the green wire. You can test the wires at the engine plug.
Since you are getting a strong spark, the ignition is working. Do you know the history of the engine. If the original crankshaft seals are still in it, they could be a big comtributor to the no-start condition. Over time they wear out and cause an air leak into the lower crankcase. The air leak prevents any transfer of fuel from the carb to the cylinder. Personally, I would pull the engine and install new seals and check the carb mounts as well.
I know it can get confusing but I'll try and clear up a few questions on testing. All measurements have a 10% tollerance
Stator
Yellow to ground=2.7K ohms
Blue to ground=76 ohms
Trigger Coils
Red to Green=30 ohms
White to Green=30 ohms
Lighting Coil
Green/Yellow wire to each other= 0.2 ohms
Your ignition coils seem good
Your low speed and high speed windings appear normal. Recheck the trigger coils. The common ground of the trigger coils is the green wire. You can test the wires at the engine plug.
Since you are getting a strong spark, the ignition is working. Do you know the history of the engine. If the original crankshaft seals are still in it, they could be a big comtributor to the no-start condition. Over time they wear out and cause an air leak into the lower crankcase. The air leak prevents any transfer of fuel from the carb to the cylinder. Personally, I would pull the engine and install new seals and check the carb mounts as well.
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ICCSF 108
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Re: 340 Cyclone Won't Start
Pull the spark plugs & Squirt a little gas in ea cyl then reinstall the plugs try starting, If the engine fires then I would go along with what Harley is saying about the crank seals..
ON a 2 stroke if you have compression, spark & fuel it should fire..
Kenny
ON a 2 stroke if you have compression, spark & fuel it should fire..
Kenny
AKA: Kenny, Grumpy, Mr. Richard Head
"I Hunt For it, Purchase it, Haul it, Sometimes Repair it, Sometimes Break it, Then Fix it Again, Label it, Warehouse it, Talk About it, So NOW, HOW Can I Take Any Less $$ For It?"
"God I love the smell of KLOTZ in the morning, That smell, you know that Gasoline/Oil Smell, MAKES the whole place SMELL like.. LIKE VICTORY. You know someday the 2 strokers are gonna end..."
Do Anti-War Protesters have reunions? If so what do they TALK about?
"I Hunt For it, Purchase it, Haul it, Sometimes Repair it, Sometimes Break it, Then Fix it Again, Label it, Warehouse it, Talk About it, So NOW, HOW Can I Take Any Less $$ For It?"
"God I love the smell of KLOTZ in the morning, That smell, you know that Gasoline/Oil Smell, MAKES the whole place SMELL like.. LIKE VICTORY. You know someday the 2 strokers are gonna end..."
Do Anti-War Protesters have reunions? If so what do they TALK about?
Re: 340 Cyclone Won't Start
You may well have a bad seal(s) as Harkey suggests.
Try what Kenny suggested.
By putting in the fuel directly bad seals will not prevent it from firing but if it does, it will not run long.
It it still does not fire than all that is left is timing.
Kenny is correct... compression, spark and fuel equals running. As long as the spark happens at the correct time.
When was the last time it ran?
I worked on a sled last week that had run a year ago and lost spark. Previous owner worked and worked and never got it to start.
Turns out what happened was the guy reinstalled the stator 120 degrees off and spark was not happening at the correct time.
No it was not a Deere. But it can happen on on any sled.
Try what Kenny suggested.
By putting in the fuel directly bad seals will not prevent it from firing but if it does, it will not run long.
It it still does not fire than all that is left is timing.
Kenny is correct... compression, spark and fuel equals running. As long as the spark happens at the correct time.
When was the last time it ran?
I worked on a sled last week that had run a year ago and lost spark. Previous owner worked and worked and never got it to start.
Turns out what happened was the guy reinstalled the stator 120 degrees off and spark was not happening at the correct time.
No it was not a Deere. But it can happen on on any sled.
Todd Schrupp
Milbank SD
Milbank SD
Re: 340 Cyclone Won't Start
Thanks for the quick replies and clarification on testing. Very helpful!
As stated in initial post gas was put directly into cylinders hoping it would fire and it didn't. I will do more checks as suggested.
I don't know the history of the sled but........it looks like the wires from the stator to the CDI box have been tampered with in the past. Multiple splices are evident. Plug in is gone. The good thing is when I cut the wire to do testing I noticed they soldered the connections and shrink wrapped them. The question is did they get the stator in correctly. Any tell tale signs of a stator being 120 degrees off that I should look for? I will tear it down and redo all seals and gaskets but first I want to get it to fire. I'm thinking of installing a larger carb too...but first things first.
As stated in initial post gas was put directly into cylinders hoping it would fire and it didn't. I will do more checks as suggested.
I don't know the history of the sled but........it looks like the wires from the stator to the CDI box have been tampered with in the past. Multiple splices are evident. Plug in is gone. The good thing is when I cut the wire to do testing I noticed they soldered the connections and shrink wrapped them. The question is did they get the stator in correctly. Any tell tale signs of a stator being 120 degrees off that I should look for? I will tear it down and redo all seals and gaskets but first I want to get it to fire. I'm thinking of installing a larger carb too...but first things first.
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ICCSF 108
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Re: 340 Cyclone Won't Start
Ski there could be a problem with the Ign timing being so far off, as that engine should fire when fuel is injected on top the piston, although I have seen bad spark plug fire out of the cyl. but under compression not fire.. Just a few thing to ck
AKA: Kenny, Grumpy, Mr. Richard Head
"I Hunt For it, Purchase it, Haul it, Sometimes Repair it, Sometimes Break it, Then Fix it Again, Label it, Warehouse it, Talk About it, So NOW, HOW Can I Take Any Less $$ For It?"
"God I love the smell of KLOTZ in the morning, That smell, you know that Gasoline/Oil Smell, MAKES the whole place SMELL like.. LIKE VICTORY. You know someday the 2 strokers are gonna end..."
Do Anti-War Protesters have reunions? If so what do they TALK about?
"I Hunt For it, Purchase it, Haul it, Sometimes Repair it, Sometimes Break it, Then Fix it Again, Label it, Warehouse it, Talk About it, So NOW, HOW Can I Take Any Less $$ For It?"
"God I love the smell of KLOTZ in the morning, That smell, you know that Gasoline/Oil Smell, MAKES the whole place SMELL like.. LIKE VICTORY. You know someday the 2 strokers are gonna end..."
Do Anti-War Protesters have reunions? If so what do they TALK about?
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harleysportster
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Re: 340 Cyclone Won't Start
Since you mentioned that the wires have been tampered with, try switching the spark plug leads if they are long enough. If not, switch the small primary wire of each coil, then try starting it with fuel in the cylinders. It's nearly imposible to have the timing ring mounted incorrectly, there is no other room for the bundle of wires except near the top .ski wrote:Thanks for the quick replies and clarification on testing. Very helpful!
As stated in initial post gas was put directly into cylinders hoping it would fire and it didn't. I will do more checks as suggested.
I don't know the history of the sled but........it looks like the wires from the stator to the CDI box have been tampered with in the past. Multiple splices are evident. Plug in is gone. The good thing is when I cut the wire to do testing I noticed they soldered the connections and shrink wrapped them. The question is did they get the stator in correctly. Any tell tale signs of a stator being 120 degrees off that I should look for? I will tear it down and redo all seals and gaskets but first I want to get it to fire. I'm thinking of installing a larger carb too...but first things first.
If you do get it running, there is also a small tiny air jet in the carb that is often over looked. As far as increasing the carb size, the standard 34mm carb is fine. You could install a dual setup from a 76 340 Liquifire.
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Re: 340 Cyclone Won't Start
Went and checked the connections again per "harleysportster" suggestions and here is the rundown:
Yellow to Ground 2.7572K ohms
Blue to Ground 70.8 ohms
Trigger Coils:
Red to Green 28.1 ohms
Wh
ite to Green 28.1 ohms
Looks like everyhing is within spec. At this point given the fact that I got spark I'm assuming CDI unit is good. Is this a correct assumption? If so. I'm going to pull the engine get a full gasket kit(any suggestions where to get a good quality kit) and reseal everything and check internals. Also will eliminate the splices and resolder up the wires with some good quality plug in connections. Carb mount is hard and should be replaced as well. Hopefully this will get it going. Stay tuned.....
Yellow to Ground 2.7572K ohms
Blue to Ground 70.8 ohms
Trigger Coils:
Red to Green 28.1 ohms
Wh
ite to Green 28.1 ohms
Looks like everyhing is within spec. At this point given the fact that I got spark I'm assuming CDI unit is good. Is this a correct assumption? If so. I'm going to pull the engine get a full gasket kit(any suggestions where to get a good quality kit) and reseal everything and check internals. Also will eliminate the splices and resolder up the wires with some good quality plug in connections. Carb mount is hard and should be replaced as well. Hopefully this will get it going. Stay tuned.....
Last edited by ski on Thu Dec 09, 2010 7:56 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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ICCSF 108
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Re: 340 Cyclone Won't Start
Ski, I would try to get that engine to at least fire before doing the major overhaul, I personally would hate to do all that work & expense only to find it still won't fire??
I'm not saying that new seals wouldn't be a good idea, But if your putting gas on top of the pistons ( and you haven't put so much up there that you washed the cylinders, lowering the compression ) & you have spark @ TDC the seals have absolutely nothing to do with the problem..
Kenny
I'm not saying that new seals wouldn't be a good idea, But if your putting gas on top of the pistons ( and you haven't put so much up there that you washed the cylinders, lowering the compression ) & you have spark @ TDC the seals have absolutely nothing to do with the problem..
Kenny
Last edited by ICCSF 108 on Fri Dec 10, 2010 10:14 am, edited 1 time in total.
AKA: Kenny, Grumpy, Mr. Richard Head
"I Hunt For it, Purchase it, Haul it, Sometimes Repair it, Sometimes Break it, Then Fix it Again, Label it, Warehouse it, Talk About it, So NOW, HOW Can I Take Any Less $$ For It?"
"God I love the smell of KLOTZ in the morning, That smell, you know that Gasoline/Oil Smell, MAKES the whole place SMELL like.. LIKE VICTORY. You know someday the 2 strokers are gonna end..."
Do Anti-War Protesters have reunions? If so what do they TALK about?
"I Hunt For it, Purchase it, Haul it, Sometimes Repair it, Sometimes Break it, Then Fix it Again, Label it, Warehouse it, Talk About it, So NOW, HOW Can I Take Any Less $$ For It?"
"God I love the smell of KLOTZ in the morning, That smell, you know that Gasoline/Oil Smell, MAKES the whole place SMELL like.. LIKE VICTORY. You know someday the 2 strokers are gonna end..."
Do Anti-War Protesters have reunions? If so what do they TALK about?
Re: 340 Cyclone Won't Start
Kenny I know what you are talking about when you say "no spark under compression".
It is mind boggling how this can be but I have had it kick my butt a few times.
Funny how the problem goes away with a new set of sparkplugs.
It is mind boggling how this can be but I have had it kick my butt a few times.
Funny how the problem goes away with a new set of sparkplugs.
Todd Schrupp
Milbank SD
Milbank SD
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ICCSF 108
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Re: 340 Cyclone Won't Start
Not to steal this Post but I sure would like someone to explain How this "no spark under compression" happens or is possible???
Kenny
Kenny
AKA: Kenny, Grumpy, Mr. Richard Head
"I Hunt For it, Purchase it, Haul it, Sometimes Repair it, Sometimes Break it, Then Fix it Again, Label it, Warehouse it, Talk About it, So NOW, HOW Can I Take Any Less $$ For It?"
"God I love the smell of KLOTZ in the morning, That smell, you know that Gasoline/Oil Smell, MAKES the whole place SMELL like.. LIKE VICTORY. You know someday the 2 strokers are gonna end..."
Do Anti-War Protesters have reunions? If so what do they TALK about?
"I Hunt For it, Purchase it, Haul it, Sometimes Repair it, Sometimes Break it, Then Fix it Again, Label it, Warehouse it, Talk About it, So NOW, HOW Can I Take Any Less $$ For It?"
"God I love the smell of KLOTZ in the morning, That smell, you know that Gasoline/Oil Smell, MAKES the whole place SMELL like.. LIKE VICTORY. You know someday the 2 strokers are gonna end..."
Do Anti-War Protesters have reunions? If so what do they TALK about?
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AirborneX4Special
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Re: 340 Cyclone Won't Start
I wonder if the crankcase might be flooded with fuel. Pull the impulse line off the case and turn the engine over with the ignition turned off. Fuel will shoot out the impulse fitting if the case is flooded.
Re: 340 Cyclone Won't Start
I will check impulse line/crankcase for flooding. By the way I did try a brand new set of plugs in it after it wouldn't fire....then I put the gas in the cylinders. Is there any quick tips on timing this engine I should know?
Last edited by ski on Sat Dec 11, 2010 7:07 am, edited 1 time in total.
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harleysportster
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Re: 340 Cyclone Won't Start
Did you try reversing the spark plug leads?
You have to have the engine running in order to check the timing. One thing you could do is remove the flywheel and look at the stator for proper placement. The basic starting point for setting the timing ring is to have the mounting screws in the center of the slots.
You have to have the engine running in order to check the timing. One thing you could do is remove the flywheel and look at the stator for proper placement. The basic starting point for setting the timing ring is to have the mounting screws in the center of the slots.
'76 440 cyclone
'76 440 liquifire
'78 440 Cyclone
'75 JDX8 (sold to a member here)
'78 Liquifire(CrossCountry Clone)
'80 Liquifire(sold)
'76 440 liquifire
'78 440 Cyclone
'75 JDX8 (sold to a member here)
'78 Liquifire(CrossCountry Clone)
'80 Liquifire(sold)