I Give Up!!!! Liquifire Problems

[guitardude081]

Bob, a few things to remember. Lots of oil and spark plugs mean only 1 thing......we're going to need to buy stock in NGK because you will cause a shortage of BR9ES's worldwide.

I've had similar problems with Liquifires. The troubling thing to me is the the "whiteish" color you're talking about means lean or coolant. If the plugs look like they're oxidzing, you may have a water leak. A lot of guys have reported external coolant leaks on fresh rebuilds. I had an FAQ a looooong time ago that went through how to prevent this. An internal leak could be possible but unlikely since your sled seems to run better than one with an internal head or base gasket leak. If they're just white, this could be a lean condition caused by a blocked jet, gasket or seal leak, lack of airbox or improper carb setup. The purple is most likely oil deposits. PLEASE do not use Injex.....PLEASE! Try Klotz (the Kenny Heins choice in both 2 and 4-strokes not because of quality but because he likes the smell), Ams Oil, XPS or Polaris standard blue for non-ves enignes. I usually buy plugs by the box because to me they're as changable as gas and oil. In my trail sleds, I change them every 500 miles at most.

In my experience, the Powerjet o-rings can only be reused once or twice before they stop doing the job properly. Pulling the bowl off and forcing it back on shred the little guys in no time flat especially if they're the real thick ones. I've had many an instance where replacing the o-ring solved the problem...hence why I have 100 of them stashed in my toolbox.

Liquifires are more fussy than your average high-maintnence Hollywood gal when it comes to carbs. Here's my trick....... first, get a 3/16 drill bit and set both slides so that the shank end of the bit just ever so slightly rubs the slide when you move it in and out. Set your throttle stops (idle screws) here. (this is too low for the LF to run properly so this gives you some adjustment if needed) Go ahead and get your cables adjusted so that both slides move together and there is no slop in the throttle lever. If you so much as breathe on the throttle lever, both slides should react at the same time. Now, get it running and adjust the idle screws so that it stays running at 2500 to 3000 rpms. Set your air screws to 1.5-1.75 turns. If you've done this correctly, when you flip the choke lever to 1/2 choke and shut it off right away, the sled should idle down to 1500 rpms and stay there. When you touch the throttle, it should bounce back up to 2500 to 3000 again and stay there until you hit the choke again. I've done this on my own sleds and for a few guys here on the board and it seems to work. The purpose is to let a warm sled idle lower and allow it to idle up so that the engine can clear out before you take off. This is assuming that you are using an airbox, a proper fuel pump, all fuel lines are clamped and air tight and your carbs are CLEAN CLEAN CLEAN. It also helps to drop the main jet 1 size because it seems that Deere was as conservative as Polaris when it came to jetting. Also make sure that you have the 105 and 110 powerjets on the correct sides, your needle/seat's are holding 8lbs of vacuum and your chokes are at the proper 1.25" setting.

To bleed an oil system for a new or fresh motor, first crack the bleed screw and get oil to the pump. Then fashion a hook with a coat hanger, hook the pump arm and fasten the hanger so the the pump stays wide open. Run your sled on premix and wait until you get a nice smoke show. Once you've got 2-5 minutes of what I like to call the "Cheech and Chong situation", unhook your hanger, fill your tank with 50:1 premix for break in or straight 92 octane for a seasoned engine.

Electrical-wise, make sure your timing is correct, all connections are clean and greased with dielectric grease, all grounds are good and that your spark plug caps are fastened tightly. If one of them pulls off if you yank on it, snip off 1/8" of wire and re-thread it. Most electrical gremlins that I have found in Deeres are in the flickering taillight or don't lick a live spark plug department. The HSR's are pretty reliable if they're in good shape. If you've got weak spark, and the problem worsens as the sled gets warm, it's most likely a stator. Stators develop more resistance as they gain temperature. CDI's usually work or don't work at all and that is it.

If your crankcase is full of fuel and you've tried to run it this way, you may run the risk of blowing out a gasket or seal, hydraulicing the enigne and spinning a crank wheel out of phase or simply fouling out a plug. Be sure that your needles and seats are working properly. I had a "knocking" Trailfire that I was 110% sure I burned down on the stand at a vintage ride. It turns out that it was a bad needle and seat and I was hearing what a good running engine sounded like when it was trying to compact raw fuel in the combustion chamber. I can't believe it ran but, I could show you 2 Spitfire pistons with dime sized holes in the tops and welded rings that came out of a running 1-pull start sled.

A little trick for the famous LF low end bog can be cured with clutching instead of jetting. Try a POLARIS dark brown spring and 47.5 gram POLARIS weights. Wind your STOCK secondary spring up to #3. This will engage the clutch at 4500 rpms which puts the sled into the powerjet curve and allows it to backshift like lightning.

I've been away from sleds with a few exceptions for over 2 years but, with a fresh Formula III crank from Jerome and a '98 Indy 500 that isn't going to service and sell itself, I am back to aid the the elusive project BOB. Unfortunately all or most of my NOS stash, used parts and childhood video games were destroyed in the recent flood in Aitkin so I'm limited on supplies right now. It's been 2 months and I'm still afraid to go down in the basement and do a proper damage assesment because I'll probably have to be committed to an asylum. There's nothing worse than seeing your favorite vinyl albums floating next to your NOS invader heads and signed Mikuni girl poster.
~Jack

[Mr. Deere]

First off its good to have ya back on my side! I've spent probably 2 hrs on the phone with Jdrob with countless other posts to other members and we've all seem to hit a dead end! First on the plugs I should have said they are new hence the white color. There starting to pick up a little brownish color. I've only run the sled 10mins at the most never revin above 4 grand. Not enough time to get color. Second I am running fresh 93 with Amsoil dominator oil. Rob tipped me off to the orings as I had no idea and I put fresh ones in. We were hoping that was it but I'm not that lucky. I need to get a new throttle cable but for now they do open together. See my sled restarts like you have mentioned with the choke trick. I re set them again to 1.25 but it acts the Same. It doesn't want to start and idle at 3 like its supposed to. I need a new coil as I tried to trim my cores to make sure they weren't oxidized and I think its broken. It doesn't seem like it was made to come apart? You think that the stator would cause the rough starts. I have the HSR set up I'm tempted to put back in but don't want to remove the engine. Plus my luck the coil would crap out and I'd have to spend 300 tryin to find another one. Any thoughts? I forgoet to right the jets down and check the power jets while I was in there. I gotta pull em again to check my seats. Air screws are at 1.5 any more and it seemed to make it harder to start. I will check my clutches. That would be nice to rid that bog! Thanks for the help. Let me know if I can provide any more info.

[smitfire]

Don't be afraid to rev that thing up, get it up to 8000 for a few seconds.

[Mr. Deere]

Yea usually I do! Don't like to as I have heard stories of tracks jumpin off. It needs to be cleared out tho.

[guitardude081]

Bob,
You don't have to pull the engine to install the HSR ign. Just pull the exhaust. There's ample room for a flywheel puller. The old style igns were fussy. If you're running the the older ign, the $25 coil may fix your problem. I'd run the HSR because they started easier and were more reliable. Every 80 and 81 LF I've owned has gotten a new sno-stuff CDI box and coil just because I hate having to swap a CDI trailside. I've never had a Liquifire that started easy when it was cold until I bought what is now Tom White's pristine '82. I learned a trick. 1 Mountain Dew cap of fuel down each plug hole when it's cold fires it right up and guarantees restarts all day long. (I'm supersticious so it has to be Mountain Dew) I stopped messing around with pull pull pull and just gave in to putting a little go juice directly in the cylinders. I figure that it's a 30 year old sled and I can't expect it to work like a 2012 model. If your engine is still not broken in, it will take a few miles above 6000 rpms to make it want to loosen up and "see it your way". It sounds like you're on the right track. If you have a Kimpex throttle cable make sure that it returns freely without sticking. This goes for any sled. I've really had to cut and chop the cable holders on some of the triple cables to make them stop binding. Those things tend to bind when you let off and you may drop a little fruit in your loom if you're not ready for it. Liquifires are moody but, as long as you treat it well, it will treat you well. A little sweet talk and a tender pat on the hump of the seat never hurts either. Liquifires love that.
~Jack

[Mr. Deere]

Jeeze Jack somehow I dont remember you being so funny? Maybe I was too young back then to realize what was happening hahaha. I probably will switch back to HSR for now to see if that is the problem. I wonder if I can rebuild my stator before I install it tho? I hope your right about being on the right track. I would like to trail ride it this year along with my X8. Thanks for all the help.

[Mr. Deere]

Well I have an update as of Jan 1st! Decided to put the old girl back together and give her a go. After pullin my guts out and hitting here with the juice she fired up. Lots and Lots of smoke and it seemed running on one lung! Ripped er around and she was boggin hard until the PJ circuit kicked in. Then the dam thing almost threw me off the back! I shut her off and then nothing. One pull and it sputtered up at 1500 and when I hit throttle it died. Keep pulling and nothing. An occasional backfire and some sputtering but nothing serious. Since somewhere in my laps around the yard the tank straps fell of I decided to dump it. It was pretty nasty. I put a gallon of fresh 93 mixed at 50:1. I was hoping to see the oil go down in my resivour but I dont think it is. I might have to try the bleed procedure again. I finally got it running and it seemed to not bog as bad but its still a little hesitant. Plugs look nice and brownish. A little fouled but better then white! I never really got the temp gauge to go up but I ran enough laps to run in the new fuel. I stopped and let it idle and it will sit at 3500ish nicely. I shut it down and one pull 1500 then dead. My bro and I noticed that there was no fuel in the filters. The pickup was under in the tank but it was almost empty. Im wondering if i have a pump problem or something? The carb lines were half full too. He thought maybe there wasnt enough fuel pressure in the tank to push fuel through. I added another gallon just to make sure I wasn't sucking air. The filters did start to fill up but then the recoil broke. Go figure. I plan on getting a new coil as well as new rope. Fuel pump is brand new. I also need to re do some fuel lines so maybe im getting air? It runs pretty dam good when it does run. I think the best it has in awhile. I wanted to try running some 70:1 or even Straight 93. I think I might be oil fouling it too. I just need to put more laps on it to make oil go down. I just really want to fix this restart problem. I might take it to the farm this weekend were I can really Run er up and out! Thanks.

[harleysportster]

Bob,
Bleeding the oil line to the pump is messy but I ended up letting almost 1/4 tank of oil out of the bleed hole before all the bubbles dissapeared. Fashion a hook and hold the pump wide open as Jack had stated earlier. One thing that I read in the kawasaki Invader Service Manual is to check the banjo fittings at each cylinder and the mid crank shaft fitting. There is a tiny check valve at the fittings that must be clean and work in order for the pump to function properly.

[Mr. Deere]

Pat the banjos were brand new when Kenny did the motor. I think next time I ride it I will open the bleeder and tie the oil open for a few laps to make sure shes pumping good.

[Mr. Deere]

Just a quick thought. I have 3 fuel filters on the sled. One from the tank and one to each carb. Could that possibly be causin a problem? It possible pump cant keep up or flow enough fuel? Thanks.

[JDT]

Only if they are plugged up Bob. Nothing wrong with running three.

[Mr. Deere]

Well I don't think they are as it does run. They are the metal bead type ones so its hard to tell.

[Mr. Deere]

Well I don't think they are as it does run. They are the metal bead type ones so its hard to tell.

[427cobra]

I run three fuel filters with no problems.

If you had dirty gas in the tank...you have dirty gas in the carbs. ( I think you know the drill by now)

Your oil level will not move enough to notice with a few laps around the yard...especially since you never ran it long enough to reach operating temp.

I dont think Ive ever heard of someone having so many issues with a liquifire...

You have a rebuilt engine.

So it has to be your carbs/fuel delivery. Have you sync'd your carbs? Are your choke plunges set correctly? Throttle valves set right? Idle set at 3K?

You will never have any pressure in the tank...you have vent holes in the gas cap and probably in your tank. The fuel pump sucks the gas from your tanks using the crankcase pressure. If your tank vents are clogged this will cause the tank to "suck in" which would probably give you some issues.

Do you have zip ties or hose clamps on your fuel lines? I dont think the lines and filters are ever completely full of fuel on my sled. There always seems to be some air.

What jetting are you running in each carb?

Is your clutching set up correctly (correct weights, springs, etc...?) Have you rebuilt the clutches?

vintagesnow.com has all the manuals available. At least you have snow! No snow in IL...

Good Luck!

[Danzig]

I agree Eric ....