Confirmed piston replacement solution for the 340s engine
Confirmed piston replacement solution for the 340s engine
This is an "FYI" informational post for those that may be interested, in what I believe to be a real, inexpensive, durable solution to the dreaded 340s piston replacement issue that's plagued more than one guy over the years, as these parts have become pretty much non-existant. There is much info to share here, so please bear with me and the long thread. I think it's worth the read if you're a "340s guy".
If any of you recall, about two years ago, I was involved in engineering/design dialogue with Wiseco Piston to get a production run of high performance pistons manufactured for these engines, (going through my former auto racing engine building business I owned at the time) since we did so much biz with them for our auto stuff. http://www.jdsleds.com/community/viewto ... =13&t=6909 In the end, they did have a solution, however, it would be expensive and the wait to get the production run completed would be a bit longer than what most wanted to endure anyway, so the project was shelved...
Fast forward 2 years to this week....
I'm in the process of fully restoring a pair of 340s engines for Mitch Edwards and in the box of parts he gave me to install in them, he had 4 boxes of new "pistons" to build the engines with. At first, I didn't pay any mind to them, as I just figured he had gotten NOS parts for the project. However, to my delight (and surprise) Mitch reminded me during a phone conversation last night that those "pistons" he got were in fact aftermarket slugs for a different engine of unknown model (although a CCW brand) and NOT factory JD parts. He told me that he purchased them from Wade Bennet (I don't know him, but Mitch does I guess) where it was believed these pistons would "fit" the 340s application.
Soooooo, as I'm assembling these engines in the garage last night, my engineering curiosity got the better of me where I just couldn't stand it any longer, so I grabbed the stock 340s piston AND these aftermarket "pistons" to put them both on the Granite Surface Measuring Plate to take some dimensional measurement comparisons between the two. I was pleasantly surprised with what I discovered!
Ironically, the differences between them are significant; but in a good way, where the dimensional "changes" are in areas that really benefit the modern-day, vintage sledder/restorer, so these machines can be ridden regularly (light or hard) without fear piston burn-down of nearly non-existant OEM parts.
I've got my measurement notes in front of me- read on.
PJ
If any of you recall, about two years ago, I was involved in engineering/design dialogue with Wiseco Piston to get a production run of high performance pistons manufactured for these engines, (going through my former auto racing engine building business I owned at the time) since we did so much biz with them for our auto stuff. http://www.jdsleds.com/community/viewto ... =13&t=6909 In the end, they did have a solution, however, it would be expensive and the wait to get the production run completed would be a bit longer than what most wanted to endure anyway, so the project was shelved...
Fast forward 2 years to this week....
I'm in the process of fully restoring a pair of 340s engines for Mitch Edwards and in the box of parts he gave me to install in them, he had 4 boxes of new "pistons" to build the engines with. At first, I didn't pay any mind to them, as I just figured he had gotten NOS parts for the project. However, to my delight (and surprise) Mitch reminded me during a phone conversation last night that those "pistons" he got were in fact aftermarket slugs for a different engine of unknown model (although a CCW brand) and NOT factory JD parts. He told me that he purchased them from Wade Bennet (I don't know him, but Mitch does I guess) where it was believed these pistons would "fit" the 340s application.
Soooooo, as I'm assembling these engines in the garage last night, my engineering curiosity got the better of me where I just couldn't stand it any longer, so I grabbed the stock 340s piston AND these aftermarket "pistons" to put them both on the Granite Surface Measuring Plate to take some dimensional measurement comparisons between the two. I was pleasantly surprised with what I discovered!
Ironically, the differences between them are significant; but in a good way, where the dimensional "changes" are in areas that really benefit the modern-day, vintage sledder/restorer, so these machines can be ridden regularly (light or hard) without fear piston burn-down of nearly non-existant OEM parts.
I've got my measurement notes in front of me- read on.
PJ
Re: Confirmed piston replacement solution for the 340s engin
Just to qualify my forthcoming comparison; I don't have any first-hand, "inside" engineering knowledge or information regarding the OEM JD 340s piston design as to "what" or "why" they did the things they did. However, as an engineer myself, I do know engines and I do know piston design, so the differences I've observed between these two parts are consistant with generally accepted piston design parameters that are still used to this very day in countless applications everywhere. In other words, physics don't change over time and remains a constant- technology does both however.
In short, if I had a 340s sled that needed pistons, I'd run these things all day long myself in my stuff and not even think about them ever again after installation. Pretty nice piece for a cast piston...
Overall Piston Weight:
1. The OEM slug is a bit lighter than the aftermarket piece, especially in the crown thickness, crown height, pin boss, piston wall thickness and the underside of the piston crown. It's understood that a OEM piston would need to be manufactured as light as possible to meet the durability requirement envenlope of its design, while meeting the bean counters needs of minimal cost per unit. Additionally, "lighter" often means "faster", due to less reciprocating mass and increased fuel efficency is also a positive by-product.
2. The aftermarket piston is a bit heavier in all of these areas listed above that can be a negative or positive, depending on how you look at it. Personally, given the nature of these old engines, their intended use these days and the riding style of the guys that ride them now-a-days, I think all these new traits are a definite positive!
2a. The thicker crown & height will be more resistant to burn-through and forgiving to the guy who has his fuel mixtures off a bit, poor fuel quality, crappy pre-mix oil, air leaks, etc.
2b. The heavier piston pin boss will better sustain higher RPM for a longer period without fatigue for the racer guys who like to wing the RPM up on these things, plus they won't readily deform to detonation as easily as the OEM parts, due to the issues in 2a.
2c. The thicker piston wall would likely not "collapse" as easily due to det events or high RPM use, which should make them quieter in operation and provide a tighter ring seal during rod angle transition.
2d. The thicker crown underside should be more thermo-dynamically stable since it's so much thicker, which would also be beneficial in those areas listed in 2c.
*Summary- The small amount of weight penalty increase with these pistons (which is only approx. 2.3g) compared to OEM, is miniscule to the obvious benefits listed above, where I'll take those features any day to gain increased durability/reliability of a "daily rider" vintage sled.
Top Ring Land Location:
1. The OEM slug has a much thinner "top-down" ring land surface measurement, compared to the aftermarket piston does- which is great for fuel efficency, compression ratio and reduced crevice volume; however this can be a negative trait, because as a result, this area becomes very "thin" and easily burned-down.
OEM Measurement- .065" (edge of piston crown to top of installed top ring, that includes ring side clearance- often slang called "top-down" measurement in the performance industry)
Aftermarket Measurement: .167"
Difference: .102"
2. Typically, the reason piston manufacturers place the top ring so close to the combustion chamber is reduce what is called "crevice volume", which is any area in the combustion chamber where unburned fuel can puddle and not burn effectively to produce work, or power. Most naturally aspirated engines often have their top rings packed as close to the crown as possible to reduce CV, since the combustion temperatures are relatively low, compared to forced induction engines, nitrous applications, etc. Reducing CV improves combustion, improves compression ratio and reduces fuel consumtion at the detriment of making the piston more likely to burn the crown edge or the ring itself if the combustion temps get too high; e.g. incorrect AFR mixtures, bad gas or oil, leaky crankcases, dirty carbs, etc.
2a. In the case of this aftermarket piston, the top-down measurement is substantially lower on the piston crown, therefore, its greater ability to withstand higher combustion/operational temps, (which is good for a fanner engine) and less likely to burn. The piston lasts longer and the rings last longer as a result. The only "negative" to this is that the CV is greater, which would in theroy, make the fuel consumtion go up. How much is a mystery, but I seriously doubt it's anything you could ever measure after a day of riding...
2b. As an added bonus, this piston won't give up any compression due to the lower top ring location and increased CV compared to the stocker, because the piston crwon is slightly taller than OEM, effectively placing the piston crown further up into the head quench area, making up that otherwise "lost" bit of compression.
*Summary: A win-win!
Wheww, my typing hands are tired.... Sorry so long, but I just LOVE this engine design stuff! Read on....
PJ
In short, if I had a 340s sled that needed pistons, I'd run these things all day long myself in my stuff and not even think about them ever again after installation. Pretty nice piece for a cast piston...
Overall Piston Weight:
1. The OEM slug is a bit lighter than the aftermarket piece, especially in the crown thickness, crown height, pin boss, piston wall thickness and the underside of the piston crown. It's understood that a OEM piston would need to be manufactured as light as possible to meet the durability requirement envenlope of its design, while meeting the bean counters needs of minimal cost per unit. Additionally, "lighter" often means "faster", due to less reciprocating mass and increased fuel efficency is also a positive by-product.
2. The aftermarket piston is a bit heavier in all of these areas listed above that can be a negative or positive, depending on how you look at it. Personally, given the nature of these old engines, their intended use these days and the riding style of the guys that ride them now-a-days, I think all these new traits are a definite positive!
2a. The thicker crown & height will be more resistant to burn-through and forgiving to the guy who has his fuel mixtures off a bit, poor fuel quality, crappy pre-mix oil, air leaks, etc.
2b. The heavier piston pin boss will better sustain higher RPM for a longer period without fatigue for the racer guys who like to wing the RPM up on these things, plus they won't readily deform to detonation as easily as the OEM parts, due to the issues in 2a.
2c. The thicker piston wall would likely not "collapse" as easily due to det events or high RPM use, which should make them quieter in operation and provide a tighter ring seal during rod angle transition.
2d. The thicker crown underside should be more thermo-dynamically stable since it's so much thicker, which would also be beneficial in those areas listed in 2c.
*Summary- The small amount of weight penalty increase with these pistons (which is only approx. 2.3g) compared to OEM, is miniscule to the obvious benefits listed above, where I'll take those features any day to gain increased durability/reliability of a "daily rider" vintage sled.
Top Ring Land Location:
1. The OEM slug has a much thinner "top-down" ring land surface measurement, compared to the aftermarket piston does- which is great for fuel efficency, compression ratio and reduced crevice volume; however this can be a negative trait, because as a result, this area becomes very "thin" and easily burned-down.
OEM Measurement- .065" (edge of piston crown to top of installed top ring, that includes ring side clearance- often slang called "top-down" measurement in the performance industry)
Aftermarket Measurement: .167"
Difference: .102"
2. Typically, the reason piston manufacturers place the top ring so close to the combustion chamber is reduce what is called "crevice volume", which is any area in the combustion chamber where unburned fuel can puddle and not burn effectively to produce work, or power. Most naturally aspirated engines often have their top rings packed as close to the crown as possible to reduce CV, since the combustion temperatures are relatively low, compared to forced induction engines, nitrous applications, etc. Reducing CV improves combustion, improves compression ratio and reduces fuel consumtion at the detriment of making the piston more likely to burn the crown edge or the ring itself if the combustion temps get too high; e.g. incorrect AFR mixtures, bad gas or oil, leaky crankcases, dirty carbs, etc.
2a. In the case of this aftermarket piston, the top-down measurement is substantially lower on the piston crown, therefore, its greater ability to withstand higher combustion/operational temps, (which is good for a fanner engine) and less likely to burn. The piston lasts longer and the rings last longer as a result. The only "negative" to this is that the CV is greater, which would in theroy, make the fuel consumtion go up. How much is a mystery, but I seriously doubt it's anything you could ever measure after a day of riding...
2b. As an added bonus, this piston won't give up any compression due to the lower top ring location and increased CV compared to the stocker, because the piston crwon is slightly taller than OEM, effectively placing the piston crown further up into the head quench area, making up that otherwise "lost" bit of compression.
*Summary: A win-win!
Wheww, my typing hands are tired.... Sorry so long, but I just LOVE this engine design stuff! Read on....
PJ
Re: Confirmed piston replacement solution for the 340s engin
Piston Rings:
1. The OEM piston rings are consideraly thinner and packed tighter together, compared to the aftermarket piston, which yet again, is great for a production environment where cost reduction is king, low drag is desired and reduced cylinder wall friction is a positive by-product.
OEM Ring Thickness: .045"
Aftermarket Ring Thickness: .058"
Difference: .013"
2. The thicker aftermarket piston ring will likely wear much longer over the long-term, it will seal a slightly worn cylinder better and will be more forgiving when the piston/rings are installed into a less-than-desirable honed cyclinder. By nature, they will transfer heat away from the piston itself and onto the cooler cylinder walls more efficently also, due to their greater contact area.
2b. The "negative" to this however, is that they will have slightly more drag, the friction coefficent will increase a bit and they would be less stable at very high RPM. compared to the thinner stockers.
*Summary- Again, in my professional opinion, this is a justifyable compromise to choose in order to gain the desired durability traits I stated in # 2 for use on a "daily rider" trail sled. From what I've seen, it doesn't look like most folks' "beat" their 340s's once they get them restored, so I seriously doubt anyone, including myself knowing they are in there, would ever be able to measure any appreciable differences in operation compared to the stockers- especially if you're using good, name-brand 2-stroke pre-mix lube with good quality pump gas.
More tomorrow, as it's nearly 11 pm and I'm tired. I'll cover and post the last two things I noticed, piston diameter and skirt length.
Hopefully this is helpful to anyone wanting to know this stuff so they can make an informed decision on what to buy for your sled. I have no dog in the hunt here, I'm not selling anything, nor am I affiliated with anyone or any company- I'm just passing on infomation that I thought some of you might be interested in.
I LOVE engine design stuff!!!
PJ
1. The OEM piston rings are consideraly thinner and packed tighter together, compared to the aftermarket piston, which yet again, is great for a production environment where cost reduction is king, low drag is desired and reduced cylinder wall friction is a positive by-product.
OEM Ring Thickness: .045"
Aftermarket Ring Thickness: .058"
Difference: .013"
2. The thicker aftermarket piston ring will likely wear much longer over the long-term, it will seal a slightly worn cylinder better and will be more forgiving when the piston/rings are installed into a less-than-desirable honed cyclinder. By nature, they will transfer heat away from the piston itself and onto the cooler cylinder walls more efficently also, due to their greater contact area.
2b. The "negative" to this however, is that they will have slightly more drag, the friction coefficent will increase a bit and they would be less stable at very high RPM. compared to the thinner stockers.
*Summary- Again, in my professional opinion, this is a justifyable compromise to choose in order to gain the desired durability traits I stated in # 2 for use on a "daily rider" trail sled. From what I've seen, it doesn't look like most folks' "beat" their 340s's once they get them restored, so I seriously doubt anyone, including myself knowing they are in there, would ever be able to measure any appreciable differences in operation compared to the stockers- especially if you're using good, name-brand 2-stroke pre-mix lube with good quality pump gas.
More tomorrow, as it's nearly 11 pm and I'm tired. I'll cover and post the last two things I noticed, piston diameter and skirt length.
Hopefully this is helpful to anyone wanting to know this stuff so they can make an informed decision on what to buy for your sled. I have no dog in the hunt here, I'm not selling anything, nor am I affiliated with anyone or any company- I'm just passing on infomation that I thought some of you might be interested in.
I LOVE engine design stuff!!!
PJ
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Re: Confirmed piston replacement solution for the 340s engin
PJ, What about ring pin position in regards to the ports? & what about lower ring placement in regards to the top of the intake port @ BDC piston position??
Kenny
Kenny
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"I Hunt For it, Purchase it, Haul it, Sometimes Repair it, Sometimes Break it, Then Fix it Again, Label it, Warehouse it, Talk About it, So NOW, HOW Can I Take Any Less $$ For It?"
"God I love the smell of KLOTZ in the morning, That smell, you know that Gasoline/Oil Smell, MAKES the whole place SMELL like.. LIKE VICTORY. You know someday the 2 strokers are gonna end..."
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Re: Confirmed piston replacement solution for the 340s engin
PJ,
I hope those pistons are drop in replacements! It would make things much easier. I got into this fiasco a few years ago. We looked at using the standard 340-340/5 piston as a replacement. However you could not run the lower piston ring as it cleared the tear drop in the jug of the intake port. I wound up using a aftermarket piston that was very close but required modification. Left is 340, 340/5 standard piston. Right is 340/S piston. Photo is courtesy of Brian Lindner.
I hope those pistons are drop in replacements! It would make things much easier. I got into this fiasco a few years ago. We looked at using the standard 340-340/5 piston as a replacement. However you could not run the lower piston ring as it cleared the tear drop in the jug of the intake port. I wound up using a aftermarket piston that was very close but required modification. Left is 340, 340/5 standard piston. Right is 340/S piston. Photo is courtesy of Brian Lindner.
Last edited by HoosierDeereMan on Wed Oct 26, 2011 12:54 pm, edited 2 times in total.
'72 400
'73 400, (2)500's, 600
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'73 400, (2)500's, 600
'74 295/S (restored) 2010 HOF poker run survivor.
'75 800, JDX8,
'75 340/S 2011 & 2012 Vintage Challenge finisher.
'76 (2)400's
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"If it has Tits, Tires, or Tracks it's gonna cost you money!"
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Re: Confirmed piston replacement solution for the 340s engin
Sorry for the poor picture quality but you can still see the bottom ring being held in place at BDC by the teardrop in the port. This is the Wiseco piston.
Last edited by HoosierDeereMan on Wed Oct 26, 2011 12:55 pm, edited 2 times in total.
'72 400
'73 400, (2)500's, 600
'74 295/S (restored) 2010 HOF poker run survivor.
'75 800, JDX8,
'75 340/S 2011 & 2012 Vintage Challenge finisher.
'76 (2)400's
'78 Liquifire 340,440
'79 Spitfire
"If it has Tits, Tires, or Tracks it's gonna cost you money!"
'73 400, (2)500's, 600
'74 295/S (restored) 2010 HOF poker run survivor.
'75 800, JDX8,
'75 340/S 2011 & 2012 Vintage Challenge finisher.
'76 (2)400's
'78 Liquifire 340,440
'79 Spitfire
"If it has Tits, Tires, or Tracks it's gonna cost you money!"
- HoosierDeereMan
- Posts: 1089
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Re: Confirmed piston replacement solution for the 340s engin
This picture shows the difference in heights of the timing port windows. The pistons I used had to have the windows raised to match the original 340/S piston intake timing window height. Also note the corners of the timing window at the bottom of the skirt. This was a issue as well. Left piston is Wiseco 2012PS, right is 340/S.
Last edited by HoosierDeereMan on Wed Oct 26, 2011 7:42 am, edited 1 time in total.
'72 400
'73 400, (2)500's, 600
'74 295/S (restored) 2010 HOF poker run survivor.
'75 800, JDX8,
'75 340/S 2011 & 2012 Vintage Challenge finisher.
'76 (2)400's
'78 Liquifire 340,440
'79 Spitfire
"If it has Tits, Tires, or Tracks it's gonna cost you money!"
'73 400, (2)500's, 600
'74 295/S (restored) 2010 HOF poker run survivor.
'75 800, JDX8,
'75 340/S 2011 & 2012 Vintage Challenge finisher.
'76 (2)400's
'78 Liquifire 340,440
'79 Spitfire
"If it has Tits, Tires, or Tracks it's gonna cost you money!"
- HoosierDeereMan
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Re: Confirmed piston replacement solution for the 340s engin
The skirt corners had to be clearanced on the 2012PS to clear the counterweight of the crankshaft.
'72 400
'73 400, (2)500's, 600
'74 295/S (restored) 2010 HOF poker run survivor.
'75 800, JDX8,
'75 340/S 2011 & 2012 Vintage Challenge finisher.
'76 (2)400's
'78 Liquifire 340,440
'79 Spitfire
"If it has Tits, Tires, or Tracks it's gonna cost you money!"
'73 400, (2)500's, 600
'74 295/S (restored) 2010 HOF poker run survivor.
'75 800, JDX8,
'75 340/S 2011 & 2012 Vintage Challenge finisher.
'76 (2)400's
'78 Liquifire 340,440
'79 Spitfire
"If it has Tits, Tires, or Tracks it's gonna cost you money!"
- HoosierDeereMan
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- Joined: Thu Feb 01, 2007 1:00 am
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Re: Confirmed piston replacement solution for the 340s engin
Another concern was that the Wiseco was a couple of thousands smaller in diameter that the stock 340/s piston even after almost 5,000 miles. My stock bores were worn .012" to .014". I had to send my jugs to Northwest sleeve in Boring Oregon to be resleeved to match my pistons. They did a great job!
I hope you guys don't get into all of this and it may not even be an issue with the pistons you are using.
Good Luck and keep us posted on how this works out.
Troy
I hope you guys don't get into all of this and it may not even be an issue with the pistons you are using.
Good Luck and keep us posted on how this works out.
Troy
'72 400
'73 400, (2)500's, 600
'74 295/S (restored) 2010 HOF poker run survivor.
'75 800, JDX8,
'75 340/S 2011 & 2012 Vintage Challenge finisher.
'76 (2)400's
'78 Liquifire 340,440
'79 Spitfire
"If it has Tits, Tires, or Tracks it's gonna cost you money!"
'73 400, (2)500's, 600
'74 295/S (restored) 2010 HOF poker run survivor.
'75 800, JDX8,
'75 340/S 2011 & 2012 Vintage Challenge finisher.
'76 (2)400's
'78 Liquifire 340,440
'79 Spitfire
"If it has Tits, Tires, or Tracks it's gonna cost you money!"
Re: Confirmed piston replacement solution for the 340s engin
Ken,ICCSF 108 wrote:PJ, What about ring pin position in regards to the ports? & what about lower ring placement in regards to the top of the intake port @ BDC piston position??
Kenny
The top ring locater pin of the aftermarket part is in the exact same position as the OEM piston and the second ring locater pin is in the same position in relation to the OEM part, only it's rotated approx. 40* in the other direction after the pin, but on the same side of the piston. In other words, the aftermarket locater pin is just rotated to the other side of the piston pin, but still in the same location on the booster ports of the cyclinder so the rings won't snag the boost port edges- just like the stocker.
PJ
Re: Confirmed piston replacement solution for the 340s engin
The 340s piston you have in your photo looks slightly different than the 340s piston(s) I have here from Mitche's engines, in that the ring pack location of his stuff is tighter and in an upward position than the pic of your piston. I'll try to post a photo to show you what I mean.HoosierDeereMan wrote:PJ,
I hope those pistons are drop in replacements! It would make things much easier. I got into this fiasco a few years ago. We looked at using the standard 340-340/5 piston as a replacement. However you could not run the lower piston ring as it cleared the tear drop in the jug of the intake port. I wound up using a aftermarket piston that was very close but required modification. Left is 340 standard piston. Right is 340/S piston. Photo is courtesy of Brian Lindner.
Re: Confirmed piston replacement solution for the 340s engin
The port timing windows of the aftermarket piston I have here are of identicle height, width and configuration to the stocker, as measured from the center of piston pin axis. Again, I'll try to get some pics today.HoosierDeereMan wrote:This picture shows the difference in heights of the timing port windows. The pistons I used had to have the windows raised to match the original 340/S piston intake timing window height. Also note the corners of the timing window at the bottom of the skirt. This was a issue as well. Left piston is Wiseco 2012PS, right is 340/S.
Re: Confirmed piston replacement solution for the 340s engin
The skirt length of the aftermarket slug I have here is actually .047" shorter than the stocker, as measured from pin center of piston pin axis, so counterweight clearance shouldn't be an issue.HoosierDeereMan wrote:The skirt corners had to be clearanced on the 2012PS to clear the counterweight of the crankshaft.
Re: Confirmed piston replacement solution for the 340s engin
This was what I was going to cover today regarding overall diamater. I measured the aftermarket piston to be approx. .004 larger in diameter "on the barrel" compared to the stocker, which would otherwise be a benefit to the guys using these pistons in a max service limit bore size, a worn bore, etc.HoosierDeereMan wrote:Another concern was that the Wiseco was a couple of thousands smaller in diameter that the stock 340/s piston even after almost 5,000 miles. My stock bores were worn .012" to .014". I had to send my jugs to Northwest sleeve in Boring Oregon to be resleeved to match my pistons. They did a great job!
I hope you guys don't get into all of this and it may not even be an issue with the pistons you are using.
Good Luck and keep us posted on how this works out.
Troy
OEM: 2.345"
Aftermarket: 2.350"
Difference: .004 (rounding off to the nearest .0001")
PJ
Re: Confirmed piston replacement solution for the 340s engin
Troy-
As far as the placement of the second ring in relation to the exhaust port "teardrop", I haven't checked that yet, but I can provide a measurement of the differences in ring height between the two parts, in relation to the piston crown~
Measurement: Piston crown edge to top of second ring (ring land clearance included)
OEM- .2420"
Aftermarket- .3400"
Difference- .098"
My question is, with regards to what you found~ What was the max allowable difference in measurement that was acceptable to still allow the lower ring to be captured by the exhaust tear drop?
As far as the placement of the second ring in relation to the exhaust port "teardrop", I haven't checked that yet, but I can provide a measurement of the differences in ring height between the two parts, in relation to the piston crown~
Measurement: Piston crown edge to top of second ring (ring land clearance included)
OEM- .2420"
Aftermarket- .3400"
Difference- .098"
My question is, with regards to what you found~ What was the max allowable difference in measurement that was acceptable to still allow the lower ring to be captured by the exhaust tear drop?