1977 CC Liquifire
1977 CC Liquifire
Having the oppourtunity to work with the 77 Liquifire in race trim was very benefical prior to the 1978 CC Liquifire launch. Although not as quick as the Liquidator, The 1977 with straight CC bars, Liquidator seat. suspension, and KH brakes, wheel kits ect. was a beautiful and reliable race sled, it met ICCSF rules and handled very well. My first experience was my when Dough Hough set one up for the ND Govenors cup 1977 opener and lead the entire field 1st. day....TXL's Liquidators, CC Cats, Bull Whips, RV's......every one! Doug broke a chain day 2, Bob Enn's won on a Liquidator, I took third and Roger Eberts last race in which he scored 4th. I never raced a Liquidator again after ND, concentrating on the Liquifire. I scored 14th in the Winnepeg with it 3 weeks later, limping into Theif River with a broken skid frame in a race that started in St.Paul and ended 1 day short of Winnepeg due to no snow. The next big ditch race for the 77 Liquifire was Minot to Regina, I lead day one and 70% of day 2 untill mud packed the extractor and cooked a wonderful race sled and a great shot at beating the competion with a consumer sled! The radiator in the 1978 Liquifires was a result of that race! I only raced 1 more time before retiring on the Liquifire and that was a year later in the Winnepeg scoring 4th, got married, finished school and was fortunate to get a Ag. territroy in Bismarck ND. I was asked to come back for 1 more Winnepeg in 1980 to challange the TXL Indy with the new Liquifire, the sled was built by Jerome Kretzman and Jim Rayburger of Brainard, my 1978 I-500 team, but the battle never occured as the race was cancelled due to no snow. The 1977 Liquifire is speacial to me as the frustration and humilation with the Liquidator was so severe and making the gorgious Liquifire work in 77 against the purpose built CC race sleds was very satisfing. Yesterdays SNOPOD shows my #21 1977 CC Liquifire in race trim with 1977 ETD team markings.....note the bars, brakes, and it was also fitted for that race with a 340's dual fill tank.....1 of 1.... Best JRC ETD
1977 CC Liquifire
Jon,
I know I speak for everyone, THANK YOU! Your contributions to the development of the liquifire are immeasurable. Who was the snowmobile manufaturer that stated in their ad campaigns in the 70's we race on Sunday and bring it to to you on Monday? Something like that anyways. Rupp or Scorpion comes to mind.
I look forward to meeting you at Eagle River. Joe is going to be racing the 1980 Liquifire I have hopped up at the GEW next Saturday. Here is a snapshot of the things I have done to this sled, I installed an extra base gasket under the jugs to (shim) the port timing, recut a set of invader heads to give the motor 50% squish, .055 deck clearance, and 10.5-1 compression, 108-c clutch and 82 secondary which I free floated. I added a damping shock to the front arm and put all of the springs in the rear suspension on bearings. Reworked the rear arm to put the carryover wheels on the rear mounting shaft instead of the rear arm. Converted the skid to fit a 9.00 inch center to center rail track (like all newer machines). I did this to faccilitate the change-over to better rubber tracks.
I have the following in the works for next year: Wilwood juice brake, a stock exhaust turned into a true tuned exhaust for this motor (via a LOT of testing) toe hoops and a set of oval hooker bars to make this a true (stock) oval sled. Most of the rules I have read out East here would let this run in a stock class. All of the modifications are reverseable to stock if neccesary.
Thanks again,
Kenny
I know I speak for everyone, THANK YOU! Your contributions to the development of the liquifire are immeasurable. Who was the snowmobile manufaturer that stated in their ad campaigns in the 70's we race on Sunday and bring it to to you on Monday? Something like that anyways. Rupp or Scorpion comes to mind.
I look forward to meeting you at Eagle River. Joe is going to be racing the 1980 Liquifire I have hopped up at the GEW next Saturday. Here is a snapshot of the things I have done to this sled, I installed an extra base gasket under the jugs to (shim) the port timing, recut a set of invader heads to give the motor 50% squish, .055 deck clearance, and 10.5-1 compression, 108-c clutch and 82 secondary which I free floated. I added a damping shock to the front arm and put all of the springs in the rear suspension on bearings. Reworked the rear arm to put the carryover wheels on the rear mounting shaft instead of the rear arm. Converted the skid to fit a 9.00 inch center to center rail track (like all newer machines). I did this to faccilitate the change-over to better rubber tracks.
I have the following in the works for next year: Wilwood juice brake, a stock exhaust turned into a true tuned exhaust for this motor (via a LOT of testing) toe hoops and a set of oval hooker bars to make this a true (stock) oval sled. Most of the rules I have read out East here would let this run in a stock class. All of the modifications are reverseable to stock if neccesary.
Thanks again,
Kenny
Kenny Waters(boy)
Rochester, NY
Mechanic for founding VDR teammate JDJR
Opinions are worthless...Education is priceless
Aspiring to be the Charlie Daniels of the torque wrench
'74 X-6
'75 X-8
'75 340S
'77 340 Liquifire
'78 440 Liquifire
'80 Spitfire
'80 Liquifire (completed VC and sometimes raced)
'81 Liquifire (bib #212f Red Lake Vintage CC Sled)
'82 Liquifire
'83 Liquifire
'83 Sprintfire (1 runner +2 parts sleds)
'96 Indy Storm (hated by JDJR and Thundercats)
Rochester, NY
Mechanic for founding VDR teammate JDJR
Opinions are worthless...Education is priceless
Aspiring to be the Charlie Daniels of the torque wrench
'74 X-6
'75 X-8
'75 340S
'77 340 Liquifire
'78 440 Liquifire
'80 Spitfire
'80 Liquifire (completed VC and sometimes raced)
'81 Liquifire (bib #212f Red Lake Vintage CC Sled)
'82 Liquifire
'83 Liquifire
'83 Sprintfire (1 runner +2 parts sleds)
'96 Indy Storm (hated by JDJR and Thundercats)
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grantnelson00
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1977 CC Liquifire
nice to know the story behind the picture. Thanks, Jon. Did you se that Russ Ebert's son ran in the snocross at the X games?
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ICCSF 108
- Posts: 4369
- Joined: Sun Jul 17, 2005 12:00 am
- Real Name: Kenny Heins, AKA Grumpy
- Location: Blue Springs Mo.
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1977 CC Liquifire
Jon, Were you guys running the Dator pipes on your 77 Liquifire, I hear that really makes them come alive.
Kenny
Kenny
AKA: Kenny, Grumpy, Mr. Richard Head
"I Hunt For it, Purchase it, Haul it, Sometimes Repair it, Sometimes Break it, Then Fix it Again, Label it, Warehouse it, Talk About it, So NOW, HOW Can I Take Any Less $$ For It?"
"God I love the smell of KLOTZ in the morning, That smell, you know that Gasoline/Oil Smell, MAKES the whole place SMELL like.. LIKE VICTORY. You know someday the 2 strokers are gonna end..."
Do Anti-War Protesters have reunions? If so what do they TALK about?
"I Hunt For it, Purchase it, Haul it, Sometimes Repair it, Sometimes Break it, Then Fix it Again, Label it, Warehouse it, Talk About it, So NOW, HOW Can I Take Any Less $$ For It?"
"God I love the smell of KLOTZ in the morning, That smell, you know that Gasoline/Oil Smell, MAKES the whole place SMELL like.. LIKE VICTORY. You know someday the 2 strokers are gonna end..."
Do Anti-War Protesters have reunions? If so what do they TALK about?
1977 CC Liquifire
Thanks guys....Liquidator pipes were not legal in ICCSF on the Liquifire, may have helped!! Yes I saw Ebert in Sno-Cross X, great to see the talent in the next generation! Thanks for the support, the Liquifires were terrific and beautiful sleds that were serious CC weapons in 1977 and 1978. Doug Oster from ETD did very well in late 1978 with the CC Liquifire! Cover of Race and Rally!! Best Jon Good luck racing Ken!
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ICCSF 108
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- Real Name: Kenny Heins, AKA Grumpy
- Location: Blue Springs Mo.
- Contact:
1977 CC Liquifire
Jon: Was there some rule spacific to the liquifires running the Dator pipes?? In 77 we still had the 340cc/60hp + or - 10% rule, As the liquidator were still legal to run as well as the 60HP Bull Whips & deere had it set up so that all parts from former years JD sleds could be run under the ICCSF rules I believe, or else you wouldn't have been able to run the 340/S twin fill tank?? right?? Or was the 77 Liquifire with the Dator pipes running more than 60HP + or - 10%???
Kenny
Kenny
AKA: Kenny, Grumpy, Mr. Richard Head
"I Hunt For it, Purchase it, Haul it, Sometimes Repair it, Sometimes Break it, Then Fix it Again, Label it, Warehouse it, Talk About it, So NOW, HOW Can I Take Any Less $$ For It?"
"God I love the smell of KLOTZ in the morning, That smell, you know that Gasoline/Oil Smell, MAKES the whole place SMELL like.. LIKE VICTORY. You know someday the 2 strokers are gonna end..."
Do Anti-War Protesters have reunions? If so what do they TALK about?
"I Hunt For it, Purchase it, Haul it, Sometimes Repair it, Sometimes Break it, Then Fix it Again, Label it, Warehouse it, Talk About it, So NOW, HOW Can I Take Any Less $$ For It?"
"God I love the smell of KLOTZ in the morning, That smell, you know that Gasoline/Oil Smell, MAKES the whole place SMELL like.. LIKE VICTORY. You know someday the 2 strokers are gonna end..."
Do Anti-War Protesters have reunions? If so what do they TALK about?
1977 CC Liquifire
Had to "Kit" any non production part or prior year parts by submiting a bulletin to the ICCSF and having them register it, then the "Kit" or part could go into the system and made public to the racers and competition....ie moulded grouser tracks instead of the plastic Liquidator tracks, aluminum suspension in the Liquifire, Liquidator seat on the Liquifre, KH brakes ect....Just Didn't do the pipes???Have not a clue as to why, and I don't remember a Horsepower zone in 76 or 77 that was part of the rules....not untill 78 if my memory is right....Hope this helps JRC
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ICCSF 108
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- Joined: Sun Jul 17, 2005 12:00 am
- Real Name: Kenny Heins, AKA Grumpy
- Location: Blue Springs Mo.
- Contact:
1977 CC Liquifire
Jon, You could be right on the 60HP limit not being a ICCSF rule, to many years ago, I just remember hearing that the Dators & the Bull Whips were around 60HP, I have know idea what the Cats & Polaris's were.
Kenny
Kenny
AKA: Kenny, Grumpy, Mr. Richard Head
"I Hunt For it, Purchase it, Haul it, Sometimes Repair it, Sometimes Break it, Then Fix it Again, Label it, Warehouse it, Talk About it, So NOW, HOW Can I Take Any Less $$ For It?"
"God I love the smell of KLOTZ in the morning, That smell, you know that Gasoline/Oil Smell, MAKES the whole place SMELL like.. LIKE VICTORY. You know someday the 2 strokers are gonna end..."
Do Anti-War Protesters have reunions? If so what do they TALK about?
"I Hunt For it, Purchase it, Haul it, Sometimes Repair it, Sometimes Break it, Then Fix it Again, Label it, Warehouse it, Talk About it, So NOW, HOW Can I Take Any Less $$ For It?"
"God I love the smell of KLOTZ in the morning, That smell, you know that Gasoline/Oil Smell, MAKES the whole place SMELL like.. LIKE VICTORY. You know someday the 2 strokers are gonna end..."
Do Anti-War Protesters have reunions? If so what do they TALK about?
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I500
- Posts: 1264
- Joined: Thu Nov 24, 2005 1:00 am
- Real Name: Chuck Moser
- Location: Wyoming Minnesota
1977 CC Liquifire
As far as the pipe modifications the ICCSF rule book states: Any exhaust modifications or replacement is allowed, as long as the machine does not exceed 84 DBA sound limits. And yes . Horsepower limits started in 78
Hope that sheds a little light on the pipes
Hope that sheds a little light on the pipes
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ICCSF 108
- Posts: 4369
- Joined: Sun Jul 17, 2005 12:00 am
- Real Name: Kenny Heins, AKA Grumpy
- Location: Blue Springs Mo.
- Contact:
1977 CC Liquifire
If I didn't know now what I didn't know then, things might have been a little different.
Hey Chuck did you get those pictures?
Kenny
Hey Chuck did you get those pictures?
Kenny
AKA: Kenny, Grumpy, Mr. Richard Head
"I Hunt For it, Purchase it, Haul it, Sometimes Repair it, Sometimes Break it, Then Fix it Again, Label it, Warehouse it, Talk About it, So NOW, HOW Can I Take Any Less $$ For It?"
"God I love the smell of KLOTZ in the morning, That smell, you know that Gasoline/Oil Smell, MAKES the whole place SMELL like.. LIKE VICTORY. You know someday the 2 strokers are gonna end..."
Do Anti-War Protesters have reunions? If so what do they TALK about?
"I Hunt For it, Purchase it, Haul it, Sometimes Repair it, Sometimes Break it, Then Fix it Again, Label it, Warehouse it, Talk About it, So NOW, HOW Can I Take Any Less $$ For It?"
"God I love the smell of KLOTZ in the morning, That smell, you know that Gasoline/Oil Smell, MAKES the whole place SMELL like.. LIKE VICTORY. You know someday the 2 strokers are gonna end..."
Do Anti-War Protesters have reunions? If so what do they TALK about?
1977 CC Liquifire
All of the information shared about racing John Deere snowmobiles is fascinating (is someone gathering it up for a book???). I recently purchased the following manual "John Deere Cross-Country Snomobile Guide" (SP-294 Issue 17). It is a combination fine-tune manual, parts book, and service manual. In the engine section, it notes that '77 and '78 liquifires (except ser. #80751 - 80900) should be modified with engine kit AM54702 to meet the horsepower limitation. This leads me to several questions: Did John Deere promote regular liquifires for racing? Were a lot of stock liquifires modified for use in races? Was it cheaper to convert a standard liquifire for racing than to purchase a '78 cross country? Was one or the other considered superior for racing? Do any of the modification kits exist yet? Thanks for any information.
Kevin
Kevin
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JoeRainville
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- Real Name: "John Deere Joe"
- Location: Fort Worth, Texas
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1977 CC Liquifire
Kevin,
I would love to document all the info I can from Jon, ETD, Rich, my own archives, ect, but I don't think there is a large market for "John Deere Snowmobile Archive: A Review of the History, Design, ETD Cross Country Racing and Collecting Deere Snowmobiles from 72-84" But, hey, maybe I should try to get it published. If CJ Ramstead is at the HOF, I will pick his brain about it since he has all the good ETD pic's.
As for the 340 Liquifire's, the HP rules didn't kick in until 78, when the CC sleds were limited to 340cc and 45 hp. The 77-78 LF's were around 47 I believe. In 77 the Dator was the main Deere of choice, minus Jon and a few guys running Liquifires. But, they did put the Dator a diet with the aluminum suspension kit that was much like the 78 production skid, and of course the famouse lite hood. Each cut about 20 lbs of the sled.
To "legally" run a 340 LF in the 78 ICCSF Circuit, you had to install a more restrictive exhaust manifold, and yes, Deere offered it as a kit. The 76 LF didn't need it, as it was rated for 45 hp orginally. As for the 78 CC or CC track and suspension kit advantages, it was a rubber track vs. cleats for better durablity and less weight, and a lighter, longer travel rear suspension. I think it was about 6.5" for the CC vs 4.5" for the stock 77 steel job, and maybe a bit more for the stock 78 aluminum suspension. The Yokahma rubber track also had a 3.29" lug pitch, and used a hex shaft with tripple sprocket drives.
So, the 78 CC had no cleats, longer travel, less weight. That should equal better handling that the stock 77 andn 78 340 Liquifires.
As for cost, I think the track and suspension kit was pretty pricey, but I don't know what a 78 CC cost compared to a 78 340 Liquifire. I don't think Deere promoted the 340 production Liquifire for racing, but there must have been some market pull as the 174 factory CC's must not have been enough, hence the kits to update a regular Liquifire 340...
-Rainville
B)
I would love to document all the info I can from Jon, ETD, Rich, my own archives, ect, but I don't think there is a large market for "John Deere Snowmobile Archive: A Review of the History, Design, ETD Cross Country Racing and Collecting Deere Snowmobiles from 72-84" But, hey, maybe I should try to get it published. If CJ Ramstead is at the HOF, I will pick his brain about it since he has all the good ETD pic's.
As for the 340 Liquifire's, the HP rules didn't kick in until 78, when the CC sleds were limited to 340cc and 45 hp. The 77-78 LF's were around 47 I believe. In 77 the Dator was the main Deere of choice, minus Jon and a few guys running Liquifires. But, they did put the Dator a diet with the aluminum suspension kit that was much like the 78 production skid, and of course the famouse lite hood. Each cut about 20 lbs of the sled.
To "legally" run a 340 LF in the 78 ICCSF Circuit, you had to install a more restrictive exhaust manifold, and yes, Deere offered it as a kit. The 76 LF didn't need it, as it was rated for 45 hp orginally. As for the 78 CC or CC track and suspension kit advantages, it was a rubber track vs. cleats for better durablity and less weight, and a lighter, longer travel rear suspension. I think it was about 6.5" for the CC vs 4.5" for the stock 77 steel job, and maybe a bit more for the stock 78 aluminum suspension. The Yokahma rubber track also had a 3.29" lug pitch, and used a hex shaft with tripple sprocket drives.
So, the 78 CC had no cleats, longer travel, less weight. That should equal better handling that the stock 77 andn 78 340 Liquifires.
As for cost, I think the track and suspension kit was pretty pricey, but I don't know what a 78 CC cost compared to a 78 340 Liquifire. I don't think Deere promoted the 340 production Liquifire for racing, but there must have been some market pull as the 174 factory CC's must not have been enough, hence the kits to update a regular Liquifire 340...
-Rainville
B)
Honorary Tech Editor
Chuck Norris doesn't get frost bite. He bites the frost.
Chuck Norris doesn't get frost bite. He bites the frost.
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JoeRainville
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- Real Name: "John Deere Joe"
- Location: Fort Worth, Texas
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1977 CC Liquifire
Jon and Rich, feel free to add or correct any of this!
-Rainville
B)
-Rainville
B)
Honorary Tech Editor
Chuck Norris doesn't get frost bite. He bites the frost.
Chuck Norris doesn't get frost bite. He bites the frost.
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WinnipegStPaul9
- Posts: 5577
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- Real Name: Don Amber
- Location: Churubusco, IN
1977 CC Liquifire
Is that near Cheboygan (sorry about the spelling)? If it is then I sure do know him. If it's the same one, he raced for the Columbus Branch and was a very nice young man. He can tell you the hazards of -85 windchill also. Don
Feel free to check out our website www.buscobullet.com for restorations or parts.