Help and Info for a CCW KEC-340/5 engine

monsoon · Post by **monsoon** » Sat Aug 20, 2005 6:19 pm

Hello,
I just recently purchased a late 70's Honda odyssey dune buggy. Go here for some pics:
Odyssey and CCW engine pics

One of the previous owners swapped in a CCW motor, model no. KEC-340/5, sn 5907382. The clutch is a comet 102c with John Deere stamped on it. I'm not sure what carb is on it, I'll have to take a closer look and see if there is any ID on it. I know the motor is a 340cc 2 cycle motor, but thats about it. Would anyone be able to tell me the HP rating, year and model of sled it came from, type of ignition and any other usefull info?

The engine doesn't run right now because one of the plugs is not firing. There is a red and white wire that comes out of the engine down near the starter recoil (along with 3 other wires), one wire goes to one coil and the other goes to the other coil. There was a homemade kill switch connected to each of these wires, so I disconnected the switches and connected the wires directly, still no spark at the one plug (the other plug had nice spark). Next, I tried connecting the white wire from the engine to the red wire from one of the coils and the red from the engine to the white from the other coil. This time the plug that wouldn't fire before started to fire but the other one stopped. If I connect either coil into the white wire coming from the engine the plug connected to that coil will fire if I connect it to the red one, the plug wont fire. So both plugs will fire when connected to the white wire Therefore I'm thinking the 2 coils, plug wires and plugs are good. So the problem is either with the sator or CDI / points (which ever the engine has). Does this sound correct?

I've started to take apart the motor to get at the ignition I have the fan shroud and fan off, the pull start mechanism, the fan pully, and coils off. I'm having problems getting the side of the engine off so I can get at the flywheel, stator etc. Does anyone have a guide for tearing apart these motors or service manual?

Sorry for the long post and all the questions, but any help would be greatly appreciated!

Thanks

Matt

harleysportster · Post by **harleysportster** » Sat Aug 20, 2005 7:06 pm

Matt,
One of the sleds the 340/5 engine came in is a '74 JDX4. The original carb would have been a bendix. The ignition system uses points with a gap of 0.014. There are 2 sets of points under the flywheel. One set must be bad or in need of adjustment. A steering wheel puller with metric bolts is needed to remove the flywheel. The spark plugs have a gap of .020. Here is link to wiring circuit . http://www.angelfire.com/pa2/jdsleds/wiring/74wiring.jpg

JDXspec · Post by **JDXspec** » Sat Aug 20, 2005 7:26 pm

more than likely the points are dirty. You can take a points file and file the points a few times and make the ignition on both plugs work. to get to the points just take off the recoil and then take the 3 bolts holding the starter cup and cooling fan belt pulley. Once there're off there is 2 windows (In the flywheel)which you can see the points. You can clean the points and it'll probably work fine.
Good Luck

Post by **Matt** » Sat Aug 20, 2005 8:46 pm

A couple other things: The motor originally came from a '74 ish 400 or JDX4 Special. That is a Bendix carb you have there. If you find that it has a carb problem after you get spark, you'll probably have to throw that one out and replace it with somthing else, as parts aren't available from the aftermarket.

monsoon · Post by **monsoon** » Sun Aug 21, 2005 12:04 am

Thanks For All the great information!
I'll clean the points tomorrow and hopefully she'll start up.
On some engines that have an older points ignition system they make an electronic module to replace the points, is this possible with these engines?
What make of carb would you recommend if I have to replace the one I have and where would the best place be to pick one up?
I also need to get a new fan belt. I found one site that has themhere
There are 2 on the page I'm not sure which one I need. Is this a good page to order parts from? Is there any other places to order from?

Thanks again for the help!

Matt

JDFanPa · Post by **JDFanPa** » Sun Aug 21, 2005 2:48 am

It would be the 09-807 belt. When you change this if you have a to tight or loose condition there are shims between the pulley halves on the top [fan] pulley that can be removed to tighten or added to loosen the belt.. Most likely you wont have to do anything with this. Just use a nail file to clean the points that are not working you can see the red/white wires and will know which set to clean. You can also wrap some emery cloth around a popsicle stick if need be to do this job just make sure the contact surfaces are free of any dirt or debree when your done. It only takes 1 lil speck of sand stuck on there to keep the points open and you still will have no spark.

Carb wise if you have to ditch the bendix most other deeres have walbro carbs but you can also use a tillitson. Im pretty sure its a walbro WR that will fit and you can also use a tillitson HR if you can find a correct style as most hr's get the pulse signal through the intake but some have a fitting to attach to the line off the crankcase which is what you need. If you cant find a carb localy ebay is a good place to look. Rebuild kits are readily available for both these brands of carbs.

If your gonna mess with this call Recreational leisure corporation and order there cataloge. They have the largest selection of vintage sled parts I have found and good prices the fan belt is only $3.99 from them your after. The phone number is 248-477-0212. You can also get parts through most any motorcycle/sled dealer who deals with parts unlimited but there vintage parts line is limited.

monsoon · Post by **monsoon** » Wed Aug 24, 2005 11:34 pm

Thanks for all the help everyone,
I Filed the points and cleaned them off very well but I'm still not getting any spark from the one plug (no signal comming from the red wire that comes out of the engine near the recoil). So it could be the stator, or condensor thats bad or there is something else wrong with the points, maybe the gap is way off. I didn't have enough access through the window in the fly wheel to inspect the gap. So my next step should probably be to remove the fly wheel for further inspection. Once I've taken off the recoil, starter cup, cooling fan belt pulley, and cooling fan, I have to remove the side engine cover, is that correct? Which bolts do I have to remove to get the cover off? There are 4 that I can see but where are the rest?
Are there any electronic modules made for this engine to replace the points?
Thanks again for the help

Matt

Post by **Matt** » Thu Aug 25, 2005 9:14 am

There are a coupe more bolts on the back side of that shroud toward the bottom. Under the flywheel you have either one large or two small ignition coils, and a large lighting coil. Then the points and condensors. The cheapest thing to try first would be replacing the condensors and checking the point gaps and trying it before replacing the coils, but if you don't want to put it back together and have to take it back apart, you may want to just replace the coils while you are in there.

Matt

monsoon · Post by **monsoon** » Thu Aug 25, 2005 11:39 am

So each winding can be replaced individually? To test the coils could I check their resistance? what kind of reading should I get? I may just order a new set of everything, condensors, points, coils.
I should be able to get everything from Recreational leisure corporation right? I'll have to get a list together when I get home.

Thanks

Matt

400brian · Post by **400brian** » Fri Aug 26, 2005 12:27 am

On the 00/JDX sleds, which would include engines up through /22, there were two different point ignition systems used. Nippondenso and Kokusan.
If memory serves me, your /5 should have a Kokusan. It should have magnets stuck inside the flywheel, rather than encased in the rim, and the primary coils should be two separate units, rather than a combined unit as used in the Denso.
If you have the Kokusan, than you can replace just one primarycoil, if that is what turns out to be the problem.

JDFanPa · Post by **JDFanPa** » Fri Aug 26, 2005 1:02 am

take this how you want to but I personally have thought points were cleaned many times when they werent. Just recently on a 292 lynx I cleaned the points 4 yes 4 times before I got spark and I thought I had them the first 3 times lol. Ive come across this many times. You can check the no spark red/white wire just with a simple test light see if it lights at all. If its only dim it wont spark. It is also possible for it to be very bright but if you dont see flickering points are not making/breaking contact. If your cheap like me try cleaning them again could work. I would bet I have gotten 20 or more no spark motors sparking again in the past year or so and havent replaced any points or condensors.

400brian · Post by **400brian** » Fri Aug 26, 2005 2:16 am

I'll second Andy's comments. I too have had points I'd swear were clean, but wouldn't pass juice. Typically, I wind up taking them out, so I can get a good look at them, and find they have crud of some kind that hasn't been removed yet.
Clean, or if they are badly worn/pitted replace.

Rodimus Prime · Post by **Rodimus Prime** » Fri Aug 26, 2005 6:53 pm

first off the engine would have used a bendix if it was out of a 75 400 otherwise it would have been a walbro. secondly the carb size in walbro would be wd or in tillistion it would be hd hr or wr will never fit..

if the spark plug is good and you have changed the wires to the coils from red to white and back and still no sspark on just one side. file them using a diamond type nail file or emery board regap and they will work fine..

if you want to custome fit a cdi you can using one from a kawasaki timeing it will be a real pain but it is possible.

the clutch isnt going to work to well on the honda unless you play with springs and wieghts.

monsoon · Post by **monsoon** » Wed Aug 31, 2005 6:01 pm

I took a close look at the carb today and it is a BENDIX Zenith carb. So I guess if anything is wrong with it I'll have to replace it.

I'm almost at the point where I can get access to the points, condensors, and coils, I just have to get the flywheel off.
What is the best way to stop the engine from turning over when trying to remove the 22mm flywheel nut? I tried placing a wrench on the nut that holds the clutch on but the flywheel nut is on there so good it just started loosening the other nut. unfortunately I do not have an impact wrench. Once that nut is off I just have to find 3 long metric bolts to use with the steering wheel puller to pull the flywheel off.

Why does the flywheel have teeth all the way around it?

Thanks

Matt

harleysportster · Post by **harleysportster** » Wed Aug 31, 2005 7:00 pm

The original tool designed for this from JD was a flat peice of steel about 1/4 inch thick x about 2 inches wide and about 14 inches long. In one end of the bar about 2 inches from the end, a radius was cut out the size of the inner hole of the flywheel front size where the mounting nut goes. There was 2 holes drilled to match the holes for the fan pulley. The bar was mounted to the flywheel using the bolts for the fan and this is how you held the engine from turning. If you can't make one, try and rent a electric impact gun from an auto supply house.
The teeth arouund the flywheel are for the electric start option that was available at the time.