80 LF post rebuild 1st startup problems

[burt87]

I've finally had the chance to get everything back together in the chassis. I pulled several times and couldn't see any fuel in the gas line so I decided to pull the plugs and add a few drops of gas. It fired right away for a second. I did it a few more times till the fuel reached the carbs and it ran for 5 or so seconds. Ten it would not fire again. I pulled the plugs and they were soaked.I checked to make sure that there was still spark, all was good. I could see what appeared to be fuel dripping from the Y pipe at the ball and socket. I figured it was flodded. As I said the plugs were soaked, but seemed to have a little water on them. I decided to let it sit till today and dry out. Before doing anything I decided to do a compression test, mag side 105, pto 95. That seemed a little low. Before the rebuild thay were both at around 120ish. Then I noticed some antifreeze weeping from the head gaskets. I'm guessing that if it's weeping out, that it is also weeping inside too. I'm calling this a rebuild, but it is only a disassemble, replace crank seals, and reassemble with all new gaskets and circlips. There is only 1140 kl on the machine. The pistons and cylinders were in perfect shape. I bought the complete gasket set from my local new parts/salvage shop. I asked them if they had any copper spray and they thought I was crazy for wanting to use that stuff. I know in guitardude's engine rebuild thread he suggest using the copper spray. What are my options?

A. Should I just re-tork the head bolts and try starting it?

B. Should I remove the heads and skuff the gaskets and spray with copper spray and reassemble?

C. Do all of B. and get new head gaskets?

I forgot to mention, I did have a friend do a leakdown test prior to instillation, he didn't tell me the numbers, but said that it was holding pressure just fine. I'm soooooo close to having this thing running again, and I owe it all to the great people of this site.

Thanks for any help,

Rob

[guitardude081]

Rob,
Your compression is low. Did you replace the needle and seat assys in your carbs? Those are probably causing your fuel issue. Did you rebuild the fuel pump? The reason for spraying the gaskets with copper is so the gaskets don't allow the coolant to leak around the head nuts. It is also wise to use Cometic head gaskets because the stud holes are smaller and seal better than the Winderosas. (I think I noted in the post that this is the only motor that I would do the copper spray with.) You should've at least re-ringed the pistons while you had the motor apart. I very seldom will reuse pistons and rings. Good luck with your project.
~Jack

[burt87]

Thanks for your reply Jack.
I'm not sure that the compression tester is correct, it's a rental from Auto Zone. I can only pull about 5 or 6 times before I'm tired lol. I will get new needle and seats for the carbs. Should I try the copper spray with the gaskets I have first or should I just pull the heads and cyllinders and replace the rings and get new head gaskets?

Rob

[Danzig]

The best gaskets are the NOS JD head gaskets, they have a white sticky surface with a copper ring. Nothing else compares.

However.....

As an aid to make things better for you are to get your heads as flat as can be. .001 out on flatness will cause a leak. To get your heads flat block sand them with 300 grit paper or finer on a piece of glass or precision cut granite table or have them lapped. The same thing will need done to the locating surfaces on the cylinders as well which will require the removal of the studs. They have to be flat!!! period!!!!

Now, the acorn nuts could be bottomed out on the studs also, the washer needs to be under each nut other wise the stud will hit the inside of the nut giving you a false impression that your are tightened down.

Once all this is done, warm the engine to operating temp, let it cool and re-torque it.

I have been there and done this, never used any copper spray gasket goop. If all this fails, go to Autozone and get you a can of siliclone sealer in a cheeze whiz container called the "Right Stuff" and is it sparingly...

As for your possibly bad neecdle and seats, take the carb off the engine, put a clean piece of fuel line on the carb, 1 foot long. Flip the carb upside down, put the hose in your mouth and blow into the hose, if you can blow air into the carb you have crud in your needle/seat or they are bad. If no air is getting in, you have a properly working assembly. The air acts like fuel, by flipping the carb upside down, this is acting like the fuel bowl is full making the float come up all the way which should happen if the bowls were full of fuel....

It's nice to be back at it....AGAIN !!

[burt87]

Thanks for the info Paul.

I guess I probably should have used new rings, but I did check them as suggested in the tech manual, they were well within the acceptable range. Would it be better to use emery paper rather than sand paper if I find that it is necassary by using a feeler gauge? I didn't notice any weepage from the base gaskets.

[Danzig]

I have never seen problems with the base gaskets ever. As long as both surfaces are clean or old gasket material.

Did you check your ring end gap?

The antifreeze may have given you false compression readings. I would add 2 tablespoons of oil per cylinder and pull it over and see if you see any change. The oil will give you false readings also, but should show a better sign of what you have going on. Antifreeze washed away any oil left on the cylinder walls as well as the excess fuel also. Rings run on the oil film, no oil, your rings are on the cylinder walls giving false readings.

You cannot replace the rings on the factory pistons, unless you have the NOS rings.

Manufacturers supply carries SPI pistons/rings for these engines and work fine.

I have never used emory paper. You want a smooth finish, not sure how well that would be, never tried it. A feeler gauge is only good enough to check the edges, problem is what if the mating surfaces are tapered in towards the spark chamber in the head, a feeler gauge will not work to check that. You will need to find a machine shop with a flatness checking table to be accurate with out a doubt.

[burt87]

Paul,

The ring end gap is what I was referring to in the tech manual. section 20-10-08 sais that it should be between .203 and .406. I know it was somewhere between the two. I don't remember the exact number since I did this work last winter. Work, kids, homework, 4-h, scouts, I'm finally getting a little time to myself to work on my hobbie. Thanks for the info on the rings, I didn't want to buy anything else that wasn't a necessity, I thought since the numbers were in the tolerance level, I would be OK using the old pistons and rings. As I said the machine only has 1140 Kl, I only tore it down to replace the crank seals. The mag side spun and nearly all the groove on the seal was gone. I should get some time to work on things tomorrow, I'll put the oil in the cyllinders and see if the numbers change. A friend is bringing his professional comp tester over for me to use. I will also check the tork on the cap nuts and inspect how the washers look. My boss has a friend that is a High School machine shop teacher, he said that he would probably inspect the heads and do any necessary work for free as a class project . I'll have to think about that one.

[A1 SLEDER JIM]

this is why i wrote in a few times to tell folks there is know need to separate the head from the jugs on a kawasaki liquifire engine. to do a crank seal job. one may cause more problems than he realizes. all you need to do is remove the 4 long stud bolts that go through the jug and leave the small studs attached. then remove as an assembly. I did this many times .specially if you r top end is good. the gasket are the problem even NOS ones can leak even if it has good compression , passes the leakdown test and the radiator pressure test. It leaks after expansion from warm-up. I mill the heads to +/- 0.001" and use honda bond or yamabond not copper spray that does not always work. the NOS gaskets can have debri under the silicone. i remove the silicone and use the yama or honda-bond the windorasa gaskets need yamabond or hondabond to seal. they are hard to remove beside suking air and water. I worked as a kawaski mechanic in the mid 1970's and still wrench them. I got two 1980 liqufires run fast and strong with electric strart. water is your problem if you do not correct it you will need jugs.

jim

[burt87]

Thanks for the info Jim.

Can you please tell me what exactly is yama or hondabond? DoI have to go to a dealer to get this or does Advanced auto have something similar? I was at advanced and thay had an item by Permatex called High Tack. It claims to be good for head gaskets, gas, anitfreeze , etc. will not effect the materal at all.

Rob

Well read up an the yamabond, but I just decided to go to Carquets and get "The Right Stuff". I'm hoping to get everything back together tonight, so I didn't want to wait till this weekend to find time to go to a dealer.The right stuff was not cheap by any means, but if it works it will be well worth the price.

[burt87]

I didn't read the can of right stuff before I left the store, I was anxious to get started. Looking at the can in my garage it reads "do not use as a head gasket or where in contact with gasoline". It also states that it is heat resistant to 450. To the honda dealer I go.

Rob

[nitromag57]

i used copper spray for head gaskets i sand blasted the inside top of the heads so they were real clean, i then sprayed the gaskets 4 times to get them real tacky and thick with the copper and torque with good torque wrench...

[burt87]

After researching all the different products, I decided to buy a can of copper spray. It has a heat range of -50 to 500. I was also concerned about any adhesive getting into or covering up the the coolant chambers, this seems like it will be easy to use and get the job done. I'm kinda glad that I had to drain the coolant and start over, looking at the drained coolant I could see white specks of the old gasket. I thought that I did a good job of cleaning all the debris out of the coolant chambers on the cylinders, but I guess not after seeing all the little flakes in the liquid. I also did the carb check as Paul suggested, no air when blowing into was detected. Seems like the needle and seat are good for now.

Rob

[Danzig]

The Right Stuff works ! You dont use it as the sole gasket, you lightly coat the gasket material.

It is not being used where it will be in contact with gas. Good luck.

[burt87]

Paul'

I understand that one would still use a head gasket, I just know how I am . If a little will do the job, then why not use way too much. . Thanks for all of your help. The carb trick really worked . I'll post how well things work out for me.

[guitardude081]

The copper trick was one that was taught to me by Ed Poets. I really don't know if it makes a difference or not but, that is the only way I've ever assembled a Liquifire engine. I wouldn't use that stuff on any other engine but this one. The permatex copper gasket spray is basically glorified gold spray paint. When it dries it really isn't all that tacky and it doesn't goo up if you apply it sparingly like spray paint-- from about 12" away from the gasket. It helps to scuff the gasket first. I've never used the "right stuff" but my experience with silicon products is that lower temp tolerance silicon will get mushy at temperatures out of its recommended range. This could possibly cause a leak but may not.

My other thought on your carb issue is that your floats are stuck at the bottom of the bowls and not allowing the float valve to close. I would pull the carbs and make sure that at a 45 degree angle both floats in each bowl slide all the way to the caps on the pins. If they don't try cleaning the pins with scotch brite and wiping them down with a rag soaked with contact cleaner. Spray out the brass bushings in the floats with the contact cleaner and hit them with compressed air. That's my trick to make the move like greased lightning.

Yamabond, Kawabond, Hondabond and Threebond are all aerobic sealers designed to be semi-drying so that the mating parts can move as they expand with heat. You can pick up a tube at most powersports shops. I usually use Yamabond because their new tube makes less of a mess. Apply sparingly to both case halves and spread it into an even film with your finger. A little goes a long way. Once you've assembled the lower case, turn the crank and wipe off any excess that has gotten on the moving parts.

These Liquifire engines are troublesome and the best way to rebuild them is to take your time and find out what tricks work for you. I've never had an issue upon initial start-up with these engines. Ed Poets walked me step by step through my first one and I either have blind luck or his tricks came straight from the ways of the Jedi.
~Jack