Red Lake I-500 Vintage Class

JoeRainville · Post by **JoeRainville** » Tue Apr 27, 2010 2:00 pm

Hi Guys,

JRC has posted on vintagesleds that he and Brian Nelson are helping Pat Mach put together the vintage class and rules for the Red Lake, MN I-500 for 2011. So far Jon has posted that the class is open to 81 and older 440cc leaf spring sleds, stock suspension and motors, but modern clutching will be allowed. I am assuming you would be able to install updated handle bars and brakes too, but I don't have confirmation on that yet. I belive it will be a 175 mile one day race, with lots of ditch running.

Needless to say, this sounds like a great class to run 80-81 Liquifires or Sportfire's in. I know Paul File is talking about running his latest project Liquifire. Anyone else considering the race?

As I was walking around my barn this weekend, I noticed I have 1 complete 80 LF, one rolling chassis and about enough parts to assemble 2 more sleds. So it looks like I will begin to assemble one of the 80 chassis into a racer, with 2002 Cat roller clutching, either an KH or Willwood brake set up, maybe some Kenny Hiens custom CC bars and lots of gussets, nyloc's, HD bearings, NOS suspension parts and I better get a crank to Jerome soon too.

Anyone else going to come play with JRC and Brian in the ditches of MN? It would be great to see a strong Deere turn out like we get at the Vintage Challenge!

-Rainville :trackdown:

Sprailfire340 · Post by **Sprailfire340** » Tue Apr 27, 2010 2:42 pm

Joe -
I've been waiting for an official rules posting because I have a rough 83 LF that needs a reason to live again, but from the sounds of things it probably won't be allowed...? If not, then my next choice is a 78 LF 440 or 80 LF. Looks like 80 LFs will be heavily represented. Any reason not to run a 78? I can honestly say my ditch banging has been limited to fire series sleds and any racing was done on the farm at home...not a sanctioned event.

Post by **ICCSF 108** » Tue Apr 27, 2010 6:00 pm

Joe, My only concern would be what was the HP of some of the other MFG 440 sleds at that time frame? also this isn't going to make the Polaris people very happy, Did they still have a leaf spring sled in 81?? what about Cat, Ski Doo & Yamaha??
Is this going to be a all Deere race??
Kenny

Danzig · Post by **Danzig** » Tue Apr 27, 2010 7:46 pm

My Schlock Rod..

Danzig · Post by **Danzig** » Tue Apr 27, 2010 7:52 pm

http://vintagesleds.com/bs/index.php/topic,41986.0.html

Dator76 · Post by **Dator76** » Tue Apr 27, 2010 10:28 pm

my favorite sled is an 78 liquifire, I consider them to be the best overall built sled for toughness and reliability, and they have a better suspension than the 76-77. HOWEVER the 80-84 liquifire has a much lower center of gravity, is much lighter, and handles way better than the 1st generation liquifire or dator. If you want the motor to stay together id suggest mixing the fuel and getting rid of the oil injection. (the cylinders tend to score from the gas washing away the oil on the intake port side) this is just my .02 worth from when we rode an 77, 78, 80 and a 82 liquifires for 10+ years.
heres my rating of them for any one who is interested.
76 = tank with premium moter with good head
77 = slightly lighter tank with low compression motor
78 = not too bad for the time but still like aiming a bathtub dowm the ditch
80-81 add deep snow kit and pretty good overall
82-84 some improvement over the 80-81 in the area of motor but not huge (dont know about clutching as ive never used tr800 as theyre too hard to find parts for if you ride them a lot.

Post by **Norton** » Tue Apr 27, 2010 11:53 pm

Hello Joe,

Have been keeping an eye out for the rules on this Vintage Class for the Red Lake 500 (Thief River Falls is 90 miles from here). The TXL (sometimes the RV) was the sled to beat in the day and if the rules were the same I suspect it would still be. I bought a TXL leafier new in 1980 and had it for 9 years. I one thing about that sled, it always thought it was a 440! On paper the TXL gives some hp but Polaris seemed to get it back in clutching. Like in the day, this race is in their back yard (Arctic's too) and I am sure they would like to see history repeat, of course! So a Liquifire win will never be automatic in my opinion! Even if it was in many ways "the best of the last in leaf springs".

As I understand this, this a real race with old sleds and the newest in rider safety equipment. Any comparison with the HOF Vintage Challenge would be unfair. When the flag drops you will not care about saving your sled for trail riding next week. I think it is a testosterone thing. (-:

OH! Add one more thing on your list of things to install on any sled run in a Minnesota-January: handle bar heaters.........

keith

Post by **ICCSF 108** » Wed Apr 28, 2010 12:07 am

Ted, I would have to agree on mixed gas over oil injection ( I really think it's an old school thing though ) Problem I can see is will the oil pump last 175+ miles without any lubrication to it?? & I haven really looked to see IF they can be gutted..

Kenny

Danzig · Post by **Danzig** » Wed Apr 28, 2010 7:39 am

Ted and Kenny,

The engine you are referring to is it the 80 Kawi ?

Why not run both injection and pre-mixed fuel, just weaken the pre-mix a little. I have seen the score marks on my last 80 Liquifire, on the intake side. I changed the pistons and jugs when it was noticed, I never new why.

Post by **ICCSF 108** » Wed Apr 28, 2010 9:47 am

Big "D" I guess my concern on that would be how much would be too much? ok for trail riding but for all out hammer down, balls riding near the studded track ditch banging it could cause a problem.. IF too rich on oil.. it sure would be better IF the pump could be gutted as I think just clamping off the hoses would cause a over pressure problem & pop something?? But maybe not if the throttle cable to the pump was disconnected??? & the hoses from the cyl.s disconnected

Kenny

johnnycyclone · Post by **johnnycyclone** » Wed Apr 28, 2010 10:37 am

It's my understanding you need the oil pump to feed the center bearings on the crank. Using mixed gas doesn't supply enough oil to the center crank bearings, and without it you could seize the crank. If you didn't want to run the oil to the intake, you could easily route the intake lines back to the oil tank, so it just recirculates the oil. This way you could maintain the oil feed to the crank, and run mixed gas for the cylinders.

Terre

JDGuy · Post by **JDGuy** » Wed Apr 28, 2010 12:06 pm

Running premix/semi-de-activating pump.......leave line connected from pump to center crank bearing to insure it gets adequate lube. You could route the two cylinder lube lines back to oil tank and let pump re-circulate. Keep in mind that the center bearing gets approximately twice the oil as each cylinder via the pump specs, or in other words, the same amount as both cylinders combined. End result of routing cylinder lines back to oil tank is that you only cut the oil injection in half, and you would want to adjust your premix accordingly. There have been reports that guys have run all premix without feeding either the pump or the center bearing without problem, but for how long and how hard?? I find it hard to believe that Kawasaki fed that much oil to the center bearing without good reason. Best to leave injection system operational and run maybe 80:1 or so premix for a little added safety factor with some added risk of plug fouling. Run a premium oil. No solution here, just random thoughts.

Danzig · Post by **Danzig** » Wed Apr 28, 2010 1:23 pm

Post by **ICCSF 108** » Wed Apr 28, 2010 8:57 pm

This probably should be in the Kawasaki section, so not to steal this post from it's intent of -- Re: Red Lake I-500 Vintage Class
This oiling of the center bearing thingy has come up before, Personally I don't think the center oiling has ANY TO DO WITH OILING THE BEARINGS, & here is why I say this..
In the center you have the aluminum center crank seal with two "O" rings, the hole in the upper case half lines up with the center of that seal ( so how would the oil get to the bearings to do any good ) now I believe that the oil supplied to the center of the case MIGHT be there to help make a better seal between the two cyl.s ie. between the crank & the ID of the aluminum center seal. IF that seal has a hole in the center of it for the oil to go through ( I don't have a Kawi Crank out of a 80-84 Liquifire to ck ) Yes maybe some of it goes through the inner bearings to get burnt up in the combustion chamber??
I do like the Idea of a return line from the pump to the oil tank from the cyl. lines. Plus it might be a good Idea to inject oil in the center If it is for oiling the center seal?? I don't like the idea when racing to burn injected & premix oil....
Remember that premix gas going through the carbs & transfer ports does oil the inner & outer bearings & IF anything would need extra oil I believe it would be the outer bearings because of the stress on them from the clutch & flywheel..

Just my $.0735 worth

Kenny

Dator76 · Post by **Dator76** » Wed Apr 28, 2010 9:10 pm

Ive never deleted the pump myself however ive heard of it a several times. I used to have a complete 82 liquifire in pieces here, i seem to be missing the tunnel, ive still got an 80 tunnel. all other piston port motors that use mixed fuel, lube all bearings thru the premix that goes into the crankcase prior to it being forced up on top of the pistons. Im not sure I want to build an 80 race sled at this time as I have other things to do. It bothered me the kawi motor would never hold together more than 2-3 years due to cylinder scoring.
p.s.If you cant delete the oil injection pump completely just dump the oil back in the tank. but it would be preferable to remove it completely and the tank as well to drop weight and drag on the motor no matter how small.