Engine questions

JDXsand00s · Post by **JDXsand00s** » Wed Oct 19, 2005 9:34 am

I have some questions about the engines in the 00 series.

1. Was the 340 the only engine with the fan on the inside of the shroud or was the fan on the inside for a 72 440 as well?

2. Is there a difference between a 440 and a 440/5 and what is it?

3. Are 21, 22, and KEC440 fan shrouds the same thing just with different numbers?

4. Should all KEC 440's have a single spring flywheel? The 2 I've rebuilt had the single flywheel but I pulled 2 off of KEC 440's at the junkyard and they both had double springs like the 21's and 22's. Are the flywheels interchangable and does it make a difference?

Any help would be nice as I'd like to rebuild all of my engines so they are correct. Thanks.

harleysportster · Post by **harleysportster** » Wed Oct 19, 2005 10:18 pm

JDXsand00s,
Until out honorary tech editor steps in, I'll give it a try.
All the CCW,Kioritz fan engines had the cooling fan inside the shroud.
The 340/22,440/22 had improved transfer porting over the earlier /5 engines.
THe early /5 engines were piston ported while the 21/22 series are reed valve ported
I believe the fan shroud is the same for the 21/22 engines. I am not sure on the flywheel spring/weight set up for the points advance.
Late /22 series and all 22A,B,C series engines had CDI systems.

400brian · Post by **400brian** » Thu Oct 20, 2005 12:34 am

Some of these questions can be aswered by going to jdparts

You can see which engine parts had the same part numbers.

On the lower lefthand side of the site, click on JD parts catalog.
Once there do a model search, or an equipment search ( snowmobile )
or part number search, or where used search.

This is a great resource.

Rodimus Prime · Post by **Rodimus Prime** » Thu Oct 20, 2005 9:52 pm

first off on piston ported ccws there is more than just the /5 there is also the /2 and /3 used in jd sleds. /1 was tried on earlier snowmobiles and later when kohler bought the mold was kohlers 440 used in the pro sled( but your not supposed to know about that)

the /4 while simular to /5 was an airplane ONLY engine.

the /5 engines modified to max hp at factory is designated the /rs engine series.

the flywheels for points mostly had dual springs and levers for advance.

in theory the reed valve engines should create more power due to less leaking. in practicallity the difference was less than it should have been however the smaller piston and longer bore used instead made i nicer hp/torque ratio. at leas t for the 440 model the 340 is actually undersized while the less common 400 is pretty interesting.

for those interested the graph of "power band" for reed is high at low rpms pretty good in middle and starts dropping quickly at higer rpms.

for the piston port its medium to start medium in mid range and tapers not to bad at higher rpms

mods to reeds are to use reeds that flutter less to improver power, cut back on engine side so reeds are inside a bit more, and usuall porting and polishing will increase power to a degree.

the piston port models however REALLY wake up with dual carbs and porting. regular single carb intakes have a bad flow problem.

400brian · Post by **400brian** » Sat Oct 22, 2005 1:10 am

Another obvious difference between an early say, KEC 340 and a 340/5, is that the /5 has deeper fins on the jugs, and the heads are thicker with deeper fins.
The /5s require a longer reach plug than the early engines because of this.

400brian · Post by **400brian** » Sun Oct 23, 2005 2:03 pm

Interesting:

According to my service manual SM-2100.

CCW engines

'72s used KEC-340 and 440
'73s used KEC-340 440/4s on piston ported, KEC-440/21 on the reed
'74s used KEC-/5s on the piston ported, /22s on the reed 295S useda RS/2

grasscutter97 · Post by **grasscutter97** » Tue Oct 25, 2005 1:15 am

THis sounds like another great entry into the FAQ's page. Possibly even include parts interchangeability!!

JDXsand00s · Post by **JDXsand00s** » Tue Oct 25, 2005 7:17 pm

From my observations, if a 73 had a 440/4, then there would be a reason for the engine differences. That would account for the larget fan shroud, double spring flywheel, and different stator. What is strange to me is that CCW didn't mark then engines as 440/4, there must have still been just KEC 440. I guess that answers all of my questions. Thanks for the help guys.

Rodimus Prime · Post by **Rodimus Prime** » Tue Oct 25, 2005 11:48 pm

ccw 440/4 was ONLY used in airplanes you CANNOT put one into these sleds as there is no impulse line or provesions and also no studs or stud holes or provesions on bottom half of case..

Yes some stupid books state /4 was used in jd sleds usually they as say that a kec 400 was useds as well ( it refers to the /3 engine used in raiders and merc sleds.)

400brian · Post by **400brian** » Wed Oct 26, 2005 1:41 am

Rodimus

The only KEC-400 listed in my manual is /22 reed valve used in the JDX-6.

Can you tell me what aircraft application you are refering to? '73 predates UL aircraft, government / military?

You may well be right. The only '73 I have is a X-8, so I have no first hand proof.
I'll start a new thread and see if I can get any input.

JoeRainville · Post by **JoeRainville** » Wed Oct 26, 2005 6:27 pm

Hi Guys,

To answer some of the orginal questions:

The 72 KEC 340 and KEC440 used in the 400 and 500 both had the fan on the inside of the fan shroud, PN AM53365. The 73 400 used the same fan. All other CCW/Kiortz motors used the larger "outside" fan, PN M63972. This includes the 73 500 and 600, all 74-78 F/C CCW/Kiortz motors used by Deere.

The big difference from a KEC440 to a KEC440/5 is the number of ports in the jug, and slight HP improvements.

The tin is all different for the piston ported motors, but similar from the KEC440/21 and /22's. But, with the 22's revised head bolt pattern, the 21 and 22's tin does not interchange properly.

I would not interchange flywheels. I have to look up the exact info, but Deere used several ignition system from Denso, and another Japanese companies before going to the Prestolite CDI systems. Each has it's own specific flywheel advance system, and Stator Ass'y.

Good Luck with your sleds,
-Joe Rainville
"Tech-Ed"

Post by **Matt** » Wed Oct 26, 2005 9:03 pm

Rodimus Prime wrote:ccw 440/4 was ONLY used in airplanes you CANNOT put one into these sleds as there is no impulse line or provesions and also no studs or stud holes or provesions on bottom half of case..

Yes some stupid books state /4 was used in jd sleds usually they as say that a kec 400 was useds as well ( it refers to the /3 engine used in raiders and merc sleds.)

Rod,
The Deere manuals show the /4 motors. You are saying they are all wrong?

Is it possible there is an airplane version and a snowmobile version?

speedy295 · Post by **speedy295** » Tue Nov 01, 2005 11:42 am

I belive that i have a 440/4 at home and it was from a deere snowmobile I belive.

JDXsand00s · Post by **JDXsand00s** » Thu Nov 03, 2005 4:45 pm

Would the gasket sets for a 440 be the same or close enough to that of a 440/5? I want to rebild a couple of 440's and I can get 440/5 gasket kits a lot cheaper. There woudn't be a noticable difference would there? Thanks.

Post by **Matt** » Thu Nov 03, 2005 8:20 pm

The /5 has two additional transfer ports that will create a problem with the cyl. base gasket.